D&D 5E What are the "important" saves?

[EzekielRaiden]

The old "big three"--Con, Wis, and Dex--are by far the most frequently used, and by far the most common until you get to fairly high levels (13+). There's a reason you see every(?) class get one, and only one, of them, even if it doesn't necessarily make a lot of sense (Warlocks get Wis saves? Druids get *Int* saves?)

People usually assert that the other saves are more painful if you fail them, but a lot of those effects are so high-level that most players shouldn't worry about them. Feeblemind is an 8th-level spell (so, presumably, you shouldn't encounter it until around the level you could cast it--aka 15th level or higher), same with maze. Saves at such high levels are quite frequently dangerous regardless of the spell, so I don't find the "but they're really serious!" line to be very compelling. I'm not saying the possibilities are bad, just that they're going to be a real problem even if you ARE proficient, while the more consistent and long-term benefit of other stats' saves is more impactful.

For my money, the priority would go Con >= Wis > Dex > Cha = Int > Str. Strength is just too situational--and often, though surely not always, you can plan around not having to worry about it. (Plus, a lot of things you would THINK are Strength saves are really a contested check with your choice of Athletics or Acrobatics, and everyone should consider picking up one or the other of those.)

Part of my reason for putting Con first? Mummies. DM threw a mummy at our first-level party in the now-ended 5e game I played. My Bard was literally a couple of HP from shrivelling up and blowing away--forever. If super-high-level Int saves are bad, low-level Con saves can be just as bad if not worse.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Int has seen the short end of the stick... I guess some more illusio s should have been tied to int saves instead of wisdom. Phantasmal killer for example. Phantasmal force however allows for a single int save and it is a quite important one. It is terribly dangerous if you don't save.

 

[Horwath]

Off topic, but a related note.
They should have stayed on the 3 save mechanics. But with including all six abilities.

3 saves should have been:

Fortitude: str+con modifier
Reflex: dex+int modifier
Will: wis+cha modifier,

all current str and con saves under fortitude, all dex under reflex, all int,wis and cha saves under will save.
Raise base DC from 8 to 9 to equal the bonus to save roll.

all classes get only one save proficiency.
Resilient would grant one save proficiency, without attribute bonus.

 

[Ancalagon]

Thank you everyone, this was quite informative

The old adage hasn't really changed.

A failed Con save kills you...a failed Will save kills your party.

Ha. This is the time I can say my PC, a cleric, (way back when) saved the entire party. I had a cleric with a (naturally) very good willpower save. The party got hit by a confusion spell while under attack by powerful enemies. *everyone but the cleric* failed the save. Thankfully I had a dispel magic spell memorized and I was able to counter the spell. Had I failed the willpower save or the dispel magic roll I think we would have had a TPK.

 

[Kusodareka]

Thank you everyone, this was quite informative



Ha. This is the time I can say my PC, a cleric, (way back when) saved the entire party. I had a cleric with a (naturally) very good willpower save. The party got hit by a confusion spell while under attack by powerful enemies. *everyone but the cleric* failed the save. Thankfully I had a dispel magic spell memorized and I was able to counter the spell. Had I failed the willpower save or the dispel magic roll I think we would have had a TPK.

There must have been great rejoicing at the table that night!

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Int has seen the short end of the stick... I guess some more illusio s should have been tied to int saves instead of wisdom. Phantasmal killer for example. Phantasmal force however allows for a single int save and it is a quite important one. It is terribly dangerous if you don't save.

But at the same time, it allows an Investigation check (admittedly, costing an action) to see through it. It's not the guaranteed-eventual-removal that a save every round would provide, but it's also hardly fair to call it "a single int save" when you can roll against it more than that. With a lot of creativity it can be fantastic battlefield control, but its damage is pitiful at best (1d6 per round) unless you can entice someone to fall into a pit or something.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Sorry. Of course you may take ab action to exermine it aka as trying to disbelieve. But it is no save. Depending on the creativity of your player and the relative stupidity of the enemy, it can come close to save or die. I would maybe allow additional saves if someone tries to hold you completely immobile with ropes and so on. Especially when something occurs that needs heavy effort to rationalize. The example of falling through a bridge would be such a case where a second saving throw may be in order. Also when you are constantly hit through ropes...
I did not mention the disbelieve check because this thread is about saves.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

The old "big three"--Con, Wis, and Dex--are by far the most frequently used, and by far the most common until you get to fairly high levels (13+). There's a reason you see every(?) class get one, and only one, of them, even if it doesn't necessarily make a lot of sense (Warlocks get Wis saves? Druids get *Int* saves?)

People usually assert that the other saves are more painful if you fail them, but a lot of those effects are so high-level that most players shouldn't worry about them. Feeblemind is an 8th-level spell (so, presumably, you shouldn't encounter it until around the level you could cast it--aka 15th level or higher), same with maze.

At CR 2, the Intellect Devourer will either perma-stun you or turn you into its own personal meat puppet, forever, if you fail an Int save.

If you know for absolute certain that your DM hates Mind Flayers and Intellect Devourers and all things psychic or illusionary, you can safely dump your Int saves. I wouldn't count on that.

You can semi-safely dump Str and even Dex if you have good healing abilities, but I would actually dump Wis more readily than Int because the effects of a failed Int save are so much worse.

Really, though, all the saves matter. This is why Paladins, Bardic Inspiration, and the Lucky feat are all so vital to a paranoid player: it's the only way to get good coverage against everything. And even then you want to use Stealth and good geometry to avoid making saves at all, as much as possible.

 

[TwoSix]

Really, though, all the saves matter. This is why Paladins, Bardic Inspiration, and the Lucky feat are all so vital to a paranoid player: it's the only way to get good coverage against everything. And even then you want to use Stealth and good geometry to avoid making saves at all, as much as possible.

My number one rule for defensive optimization: "Screw it, new character sheets are free."

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

@TwoSix,

Heh. My players seem to subscribe to that philosophy too.