D&D 5E What are the most UNDER/OVER CRed Monsters in the Monster Manual?

[CapnZapp]

Over CR: Anything over CR ~11 or so with Damage Resistance overcome by magic weapons, especially demons and most undead.

We had a party of five and a half level 13 characters take out two Balors (CR 19) in two encounters on the same day without much difficulty. We did have the advantage of being martially focused and only having one arcane spellcaster (Magic Resistance is a real beating for spellcasters) but other than they went down in two or three rounds and had no chance to get away. The fact that it has misty step 120' as an action instead of literal teleport really neuters these creatures.

It's one thing for the game to "not assume the PCs will have magic items." It's quite another to stat out end game monsters like nobody's ever going to find a +1 weapon or gain access to magic weapon at any point in 13 levels. Did the devs ever look at their own treasure tables? "Oh, but they're assuming you're not using them." I'm sorry, but that's stupid. Why wouldn't the devs design monsters around all the default rules for character progression that they themselves outlined? I've never seen a game go past level 6 where the martial characters didn't have at least a +0 magic weapon to give to the Fighter. "Well, that's just the way you play." No, it's the way the published adventures are written and the way the default rules tell you to play. There are no publish adventure paths that have zero magic weapons. The default rules tell you to roll for magic items. It's unlikely that you'll fail to find a magic weapon before level 10 if you're playing with the rules as presented unless your DMs is modifying something. So why does CR assume you're modifying something? Players shouldn't expect an item treadmill a-la the 4e parcel system where you get consistent and increasing rewards, but the game also shouldn't expect that that we're playing in the Hyborian Age. Even Middle Earth gave the protagonists several magic weapons. I mean, Forgotten Realms is the default setting, but the monsters are built around the assumption that the PCs won't have magic weapons? Come on....

Simply put, Balor should say: "CR 15 (CR 19 if the party cannot overcome non-magical defenses)" or "CR 15 (+50% XP if the party cannot overcome non-magical defenses)".

Thank you.

Yes, its frustrating enough to have to deal with anemic and uninspired monster design (especially since there does not seem to be any plans to reissue a Monster Manual v2 which fixes many monsters).

To then have to deal with either naive or outright apologetic forumists that insist on denying the problems, shifting the blame onto DMs and generally standing in the way of constructive improvement, makes it that much more frustrating.

So it's liberating to read a rant telling the truth as I myself know it!

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[CapnZapp]

The fact that it has misty step 120' as an action instead of literal teleport really neuters these creatures.

The biggest flaw is that all these very high level monsters have their movement specified as an ACTION rather than a bonus action.

That really is hand-holding of the first order.

While I accept that any low-CR monster should not be able to zip around the battlefield at will, lest it might accidentally wipe out a party of greenhorn players new to the game still with their training wheels attached.

Applying the same baby-sitting thinking to CR 19 monsters really raises my hackles!

Any monster at CR 12 or so (and higher) with misty step or teleport should have its ability ERRATAED into using a bonus action, not an action.

Yes, that is crippling enough that errata (meaning "we did wrong, now fixing an actual error") should have been issued!

(Feel free to add a Recharge to this for some lesser monsters.

For a Balor though, even full-on Teleport freely at-will, isn't unreasonable. It's a CR 19 greater demon, for crying out loud!)


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[Sword of Spirit]

I’ve got to agree that an action for Teleport is almost useless for a balor in combat. If they are in a fight they feel like they need to flee from, 120’ as an action is not going to help them succeed in the attempt.

 

[dave2008]

I think this monster would be weak even as a regular monster....it is not even close to a legendary of that CR 15.

This is an odd statement. There is no difference in challenge if the monster is regular or legendary, assuming they have the same CR. For example, the marilith (CR 16) and the mummy lord (CR 15 - legendary) are supposed to be virtually the same challenge. The legendary features are figured into the calculation of the CR.

Also, to be clear. A single mummy lord is not supposed to be a challenge for a lvl 15 party. That is not how the encounter system works.

All that being said, I agree the mummy lord is a under powered, but that is a general trend, and I would even say goal, of this edition.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

Over CR: Anything over CR ~11 or so with Damage Resistance overcome by magic weapons, especially demons and most undead.

We had a party of five and a half level 13 characters take out two Balors (CR 19) in two encounters on the same day without much difficulty. We did have the advantage of being martially focused and only having one arcane spellcaster (Magic Resistance is a real beating for spellcasters) but other than they went down in two or three rounds and had no chance to get away. The fact that it has misty step 120' as an action instead of literal teleport really neuters these creatures.

It's one thing for the game to "not assume the PCs will have magic items." It's quite another to stat out end game monsters like nobody's ever going to find a +1 weapon or gain access to magic weapon at any point in 13 levels. Did the devs ever look at their own treasure tables? "Oh, but they're assuming you're not using them." I'm sorry, but that's stupid. Why wouldn't the devs design monsters around all the default rules for character progression that they themselves outlined? I've never seen a game go past level 6 where the martial characters didn't have at least a +0 magic weapon to give to the Fighter. "Well, that's just the way you play." No, it's the way the published adventures are written and the way the default rules tell you to play. There are no publish adventure paths that have zero magic weapons. The default rules tell you to roll for magic items. It's unlikely that you'll fail to find a magic weapon before level 10 if you're playing with the rules as presented unless your DMs is modifying something. So why does CR assume you're modifying something? Players shouldn't expect an item treadmill a-la the 4e parcel system where you get consistent and increasing rewards, but the game also shouldn't expect that that we're playing in the Hyborian Age. Even Middle Earth gave the protagonists several magic weapons. I mean, Forgotten Realms is the default setting, but the monsters are built around the assumption that the PCs won't have magic weapons? Come on....

Simply put, Balor should say: "CR 15 (CR 19 if the party cannot overcome non-magical defenses)" or "CR 15 (+50% XP if the party cannot overcome non-magical defenses)".

Yeah, having just finished Out of the Abyss...honestly demons are a joke. Even the Lords and Princes. And the "default assumption" that the campaign will not have magic is true in what, a small percentage of tables? I was rewriting monsters of the fly so much I really feel like I should have just skipped the monster manual and made everything up myself.

Though part of it is crits are so ridiculous...

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

All that being said, I agree the mummy lord is a under powered, but that is a general trend, and I would even say goal, of this edition.

Yeah, people get annoyed with me when I say it but 5e by default is on easy mode. From my experiences running it over the past couple years. YMMV, etc.

 

[CapnZapp]

I’ve got to agree that an action for Teleport is almost useless for a balor in combat. If they are in a fight they feel like they need to flee from, 120’ as an action is not going to help them succeed in the attempt.

Yes, well, I hope we can agree no designer hands out abilities with the purpose to help the monster flee. No player likes that.

No, teleport (or misty step) is a tactical movement enabler, and at that level, it's definitely needed.

Problem is, using up your action on it is incredibly weak-sauce.

The natural thing, that really puts the scare in the players, is for it to BOTH step/teleport and still cause a shitload of damage.

Step close to the party caster, make full attacks.

Next round, make full attacks, then teleport away.

Third round, Port in somewhere completely different and do something there.

NOW we're talking CR 19!!

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[CapnZapp]

Yeah, having just finished Out of the Abyss...honestly demons are a joke. Even the Lords and Princes. And the "default assumption" that the campaign will not have magic is true in what, a small percentage of tables? I was rewriting monsters of the fly so much I really feel like I should have just skipped the monster manual and made everything up myself.

Amen brother



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[Zmajdusa]

I'd say any monster that you have to make a save against every round. The game I was in last weekend had an encounter with 3 umberhulks, needless to say every martial character started out the fight confused

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

That's just the joy of Umberhulks. In old editions you didn't get a save but once, then it was 3-12 rounds of confusion. Brutal!