What Are You 12?

[KarinsDad]

I have been noticing a trend with WotC that I find somewhat bothersome.

It's as if the company is being run by young teenagers.

Some examples:

1) A friend of mine created a submission to WotC and was denied. A few years later, WotC released a series of books with the major artifact from his submission with not only the same ability, but with the exact same name (and the name is the title of the book).

2) The podcasts on WotC web sites are full of foul mouth expletives that I as a business owner would never have associated with my company. And half of the players on the podcasts appear to not know the rules at all.

3) Any post that is anti-WotC and even slightly controversial on the WotC forums is locked down, often within a matter of hours. Free speech is practically denied if anything negative is said about WotC.

4) WotC seems to be threatening a lot of web sites with lawsuits if anyone creates anything useful as a 4E tool. I have a few web sites in my favorites list that no longer exist or have their useful tools available.

It just seems to me that a bunch of young punks are running the show at WotC. Maybe I'm just an old grognard, but I am seeing quite a few things that make me go: hmmmm.

 

[Grymar]

Mixed reactions:

1) that sucks and indefensible if true
2) This doesn't bother me, but I understand your point of view. To me, however, this makes it seem like a real game. My table certainly sounds more like the podcasts than some sanitized version where there are no questions on rules or crude language.
3) Not too unusual from any company, but I also dislike it.
4) Part of this I understand about having to defend your IP in order to retain it, but they seem to do it in the most clumsy, horrible-PR way possible.

 

[Piratecat]

4) WotC seems to be threatening a lot of web sites with lawsuits if anyone creates anything useful as a 4E tool. I have a few web sites in my favorites list that no longer exist or have their useful tools available.

I submit that there's a significant difference between "useful web-tool" and someone who is ripping off D&D's trade dress and intellectual property, to the extent of illegally having every power duplicated. The latter isn't okay.

I'll also point out that there's no freedom of speech here on EN World, either. If we think you're being a jerk, you get booted.

But I think they're falling prey to some awfully poor strategy, and it's disappointing.

 

[avin]

3) 4E was kinda inspired by Wow, they should be inspired a bit by Blizzard's boards also.

 

[Harr]

3) Any post that is anti-WotC and even slightly controversial on the WotC forums is locked down, often within a matter of hours. Free speech is practically denied if anything negative is said about WotC.

Sorry, but I can tell you as a regular poster on the WotC forums that this is transparently and blatantly false.

Criticism and flames against the company and its decisions live healthy and well over there. You can even go look at their own version of the "Oh no no more PDFs" thread which not only is still going strong, but is of a way stronger tone than the one here. And the one over there did -not- even get temporarily closed while the mods figured stuff out like it did here.

Also I myself have frequently gotten into flaming matches over in those forums and I can tell you first-hand that the only time I get edited is when I lose it and step over the line and attack another poster personally. I certainly say things over there that I would/could never say over here, for example, compare my thread-starting post on the PDF thread in these forums with the post I made in the thread in those forums (my handle there is Tropico).

Also, not knowing the rules and asking questions as you go along is and has always been part and parcel of playing D&D.

But apart from those two things? 100% agreed

 

[Nightchilde-2]

2) The podcasts on WotC web sites are full of foul mouth expletives that I as a business owner would never have associated with my company. And half of the players on the podcasts appear to not know the rules at all.

I've only really noticed this in the Penny Arcade podcasts. Like Grymar, this doesn't bother me...sounds like a normal session to me.

3) Any post that is anti-WotC and even slightly controversial on the WotC forums is locked down, often within a matter of hours. Free speech is practically denied if anything negative is said about WotC.

Message boards are privately owned. Free speech and Democracy are not a given in these instances.

4) WotC seems to be threatening a lot of web sites with lawsuits if anyone creates anything useful as a 4E tool. I have a few web sites in my favorites list that no longer exist or have their useful tools available.

Which is totally within their rights in the name of protecting their intellectual property and copyrights. If they let someone get away with it, that sets a legal precedent for others to do so.

 

[Quartz]

1) A friend of mine created a submission to WotC and was denied. A few years later, WotC released a series of books with the major artifact from his submission with not only the same ability, but with the exact same name (and the name is the title of the book).

So, your friend has contacted or sued WotC and got suitable recompense, right? Or did the terms of the submission give WotC the rights to his IP regardless?

People and companies screw up. Errare humanum est. It's how they deal with cock-ups that's the real test.

 

[PatrickLawinger]

A couple of quick responses:
1) People have the same or similar ideas all of the time. This is why most companies use that wonderful submission form that you have to sign recognizing that. When I prepared Eldritch Sorcery for Necromancer Games I had several submissions that were almost identical. In one case, the spell name, description, and effects were almost exactly the same (all authors had multiple spells accepted so all got credit).
In that same book, we published a spell that turned out to be almost entirely the same as a spell in Monte Cook's Complete Book of Eldritch Might. This was because we used the same sources as Monte and ended up with the same spell.

People CAN come up with the same idea. Usually this means they have read many of the same books, think in similar ways, etc.

2) I agree, this is very unprofessional and reflects poorly on your company as well as potentially discouraging parents from getting their children involved.

3) I am not on their boards enough to see this. I have seen some pretty inflammatory posts on the WotC GSL message board that were allowed to continue. Maybe this is more prevalent on some of the other WotC forums, this just hasn't been my experience.

4) If you don't protect your IP you can lose it. This doesn't mean that the way WotC has gone about it isn't a PR fiasco though. WotC HAD to ask some of those websites to shut down or drastically change.

Honestly, I think WotC is trying to stand on the border of entering into the "new electronic age" and doing so poorly. They need a much more effective website, more effective electronic tools, and, if they are axing .pdfs from online vendors they need to have their own distribution system for legal .pdfs.

I think their online presence lately is hit or miss, and mostly miss. They need to get a fansite policy up early last year.

 

[Aberzanzorax]

I utterly hate WotC at this point, but

There are a lot of bad things they have done. A lot. I can give you a list of many of them if you like. BUT....


#3 is false. They do NOT shut down criticism on their forums. In fact they let it fly. That is, they are even MORE lenient of vitirol than enworld is (something I appreciate about ENworld).

I, after specifically calling out Chris Youngs on the emags, and a few other very negative criticisms (posting word counts of their last year of free web enhancements and comparing them against the ezines at the time) was offered and appointed News Guide for the VCL of the D&Di forums (including the Dungeon and Dragon forums).

Yes, I was one of the most vocal about their frequent screw-ups and was appointed to a (volunteer) position of leadership.

Never once was I banned or even a post edited.

They do tend to let their forums get out of control every once and a while, though...and there are a lot of people who hate them and gravitate there.

Due to my distaste for them, I resigned as News Guide. I was in no way forced out (either subtly or forcefully). I still go there from time to time and read up, but I much prefer to post here. It's a lot more positive, better moderated, and constructive.


So, if you want to criticize them, I'm all for it. I agree that the company may be run by people with the emotional and intellectual capacities of 12 year olds. But the forum "big brothering" you speak of is false.

 

[Dragonhelm]

1) A friend of mine created a submission to WotC and was denied. A few years later, WotC released a series of books with the major artifact from his submission with not only the same ability, but with the exact same name (and the name is the title of the book).

I can't really address point #1, as I don't know WotC's side of the story. I do know, from experience, that sometimes simultaneous game design happens. Again, though, I don't know the details.

2) The podcasts on WotC web sites are full of foul mouth expletives that I as a business owner would never have associated with my company. And half of the players on the podcasts appear to not know the rules at all.

I have no issues with this, as they've given disclaimers about the language and it also shows people learning the game. 4e is still very new, so it helps those of us who are still trying to learn it to get to know the rules when some of the players are learning. It's all about having fun!

My main issue with the D&D podcast, even prior to the current episodes (which are forgiven due to their environment) is that the audio production qualities are abysmal. If you're going to put out a podcast reflecting THE main RPG brand name, then you should have a quality podcast to go with it.

3) Any post that is anti-WotC and even slightly controversial on the WotC forums is locked down, often within a matter of hours. Free speech is practically denied if anything negative is said about WotC.

I was a WizO a few years back, and I can attest that this is not standard operating procedure. They tolerate criticism. They do not tolerate behaviors that break their Code of Conduct, such as flaming.

4) WotC seems to be threatening a lot of web sites with lawsuits if anyone creates anything useful as a 4E tool. I have a few web sites in my favorites list that no longer exist or have their useful tools available.

Not true. WotC is protecting their IP, though. Sites like Ema's, that profited off of WotC's IP, went too far.

Granted, maybe WotC could have handled that better. Personally, if I was WotC, I'd hire Ema and put his content on their site. While you normally don't want competing products from the same company, you could call this a bonus freebie that you get through a D&D Insider subscription - above and beyond the Character Builder. Heck, maybe some of Ema's designs could be incorporated into the Character Builder.

It just seems to me that a bunch of young punks are running the show at WotC. Maybe I'm just an old grognard, but I am seeing quite a few things that make me go: hmmmm.

WotC, as the industry leader, gets vilified quite often. It's easy to say they're doing everything wrong. Yet at the same time, we have to remember that they are a business who must protect their IP. We may not agree with them always, nor should we. Yet at the same time, I think it is an injustice to always make them into the villains.

I do not agree with the way they are handling their PDF situation. At the same time, I believe that they have the right to protect their IP however they want. So if they want to take down PDF downloads, they have every right to. I can only voice my opinion and hope that they find a way to return them in some form or another.