Pathfinder 1E What can 5e Give us that Pathfinder doesn't

[Ahnehnois]

PF is on some level a great game and a great business, but it fixed almost none of the problems of 3.5.

In fact, the closest thing we've seen to an attempt to improve the game is Trailblazer, but that's a small company that can only go so far.

So a 5e could (I'm not saying would) fix the game's problems and move it into new territory. It could:

*Increase realism and verisimilitude
*Reduce complexity and bookkeeping
*Redice dependency on computers and battlemaps
*Make all character types fun and interesting
*Grant players more narrative control
*Make the game more beginner-friendly and more accessible to non-gamers

***

It would be miraculous if all those things actually happened, but that's the upside. D&D is not perfect; it can be made better.

 

[SSquirrel]

So a 5e could (I'm not saying would) fix the game's problems and move it into new territory. It could:

*Increase realism and verisimilitude
*Reduce complexity and bookkeeping
*Redice dependency on computers and battlemaps
*Make all character types fun and interesting
*Grant players more narrative control
*Make the game more beginner-friendly and more accessible to non-gamers

***

It would be miraculous if all those things actually happened, but that's the upside. D&D is not perfect; it can be made better.

Honest questions here. Why does D&D need to be more realistic? How is the verisimilitude out of whack? You're in a world of magic and monsters, the verisimilitude seems fine to me. I'll give you the bookkeeping, b/c condition tracking is annoying as heck. The game is already less complex than 3E was, but it could probably become simpler. If it became too much simpler tho, I might be pretty bored. I know I disliked the Essentials class changes.

If they aren't going to be selling a mini line, we might see less dependency on battlemaps, but I was using battlemaps in Rolemaster in '97, let alone in 3 or 4E. The computer will become MORE not less integral to the game. The fact that they built DDI using Silverlight, guaranteeing that it wouldn't be available on the iPad was a major mistake. The next edition of the game needs a strong blend with the computer. Not a requirement for play, but it isnt' required currently either. DDI does make character creation and rules lookup a snap tho.

They already did those bottom 3 w/4E. For example, people actually have fun playing healers and don't just feel like Pez dispensers of healing. Characters have a lot more narrative control than any other edition of the game and it was way easier to teach new players 4E than 3E was. heck one of my friends had tried a game or 2 of 3E and had a terrible time, she had no problem picking up the basics of 4E.

The more accessible to non-gamers bit I'll admit to being stumped on. The general public's interest in fantasy has never been as high as it is now tho, so if D&D's marketing can position themselves properly, that is all they can hope for. It isn't like you can make D&D jump off the shelf into people's bags

 

[Ahnehnois]

Honest questions here. Why does D&D need to be more realistic? How is the verisimilitude out of whack? You're in a world of magic and monsters, the verisimilitude seems fine to me.

It doesn't *need* to be realistic. However, I'm a firm believer that you should start with reality and work your way away from it as need be. Why? Why do Sam and Frodo spend so much time looking for food? Why did Lovecraft use all those real-world science references? Why does Game of Thrones exist? Across all types of storytelling, the story is more emotionally powerful if it feels real. There are certainly limits as to how practical it is to incorporate realism, but again, reality should be the starting point.

As to how the verisimilitude is out of whack, D&D characters don't bleed, don't cry, can fall off a cliff without being harmed, rarely tire, and yet the exact number of times per day that can do their most useful ability is tracked meticulously. That's how.

They already did those bottom 3 w/4E. For example, people actually have fun playing healers and don't just feel like Pez dispensers of healing. Characters have a lot more narrative control than any other edition of the game and it was way easier to teach new players 4E than 3E was. heck one of my friends had tried a game or 2 of 3E and had a terrible time, she had no problem picking up the basics of 4E.

Frankly, I don't think 4e made any progress on any of those fronts (nor did PF, which was the thread topic). Everyone's got their own experiences.

The more accessible to non-gamers bit I'll admit to being stumped on. The general public's interest in fantasy has never been as high as it is now tho, so if D&D's marketing can position themselves properly, that is all they can hope for. It isn't like you can make D&D jump off the shelf into people's bags

D&D needs a rebranding that makes it acceptable to a wider variety of people. Like you say, the audience is out there.

 

[IanB]

Now the question is, what can 5e give me that Pathfinder doesnt already?

Mind flayers.

 

[Randomthoughts]

PF does have baggage from compatibility with 3e that 5e doesn't need to have. Personally I wish 5e won't be burdened with 4e compatibility, but people who've invested more time and money will probably disagree.

I'm thinking that for 5e, we'd have to ask "at what level" would 5e be compatible with 4e, referring to the modular approach 5e may be taking. Hopefully (for me), the answer is "at some level".

I doubt 5e would be compatible at its most basic level; 4e is too complex for that. But perhaps at the "next level" (whatever that may be)?

I'd be ecstatic if 80% or so of 5e is compatible with 4e (the remaining 20% consisting of parts of 4e I either don't care about or think should change anyway). But I'd settle for less depending on what the rules end up being.

 

[Rhenny]

I like TerraDave's list. Well done!

Especially making it easier for DM to prep and run, and speed up combat. Both Pathfinder and 4e combats can take too long.

I also want online tools like monster builder, character generators, compendiums, and full integration with a Virtual Tabletop.

 

[Ferrous]

I am just about to start a Patfinder campaign. I have GM'ed 4th edition but I am overall not a big fan. And to be frank I doubt if I could get anyone of my extended social group to play it. I also play Fantasy Craft but think the obsession with "downtime" is a fault.

Pathfinder for me has some good bug fixes but is over complex and has lots of subsystems that don't interact very well. I like the kit system to add flavour but think that they do not go far enough to modify the base class so we still get a proliferation of new classes. Which is for me the worst of both worlds as you get extra complexity and it encourages system mastery but it still doesn't make some archetypes balanced or viable

For me: Barbarians, Beserkers, Cavaliers, Duellist, Gladiators, Knights, Marshals, Mercenaries, Pitfighters, Rangers, Samauri, Swashbucklers etc. are all flavours of Fighter. I want a skill and feat system robust enought to create all of these with out searching through 20 different splat books.

I hope 5th edition can provide this.

 

[dingle]

You can try my Pathfinder NPC Generator Pathfinder Dingles Games

I'm upgrading it all the time, It's free for level 1-5, advancing monsters and adding templates. Paid membership allows 20 levels in 2 classes and 10 levels in a prestige classes.

http://www.dinglesgames.com/tools/NPCGenerator/pathfinder/

 

[DonTadow]

You can try my Pathfinder NPC Generator Pathfinder Dingles Games

I'm upgrading it all the time, It's free for level 1-5, advancing monsters and adding templates. Paid membership allows 20 levels in 2 classes and 10 levels in a prestige classes.

http://www.dinglesgames.com/tools/NPCGenerator/pathfinder/

I have and it works great for some things, and its no fault of yours, but it doesnt load into maptools very well, thus I can't use it often.

Which reminds me of another thing I"d like to see that pathfinder really doesnt do well. A simple, exportable statblock. Something simple that XML or another transfer language can use to import things from one place to another.

 

[DonTadow]

You can try my Pathfinder NPC Generator Pathfinder Dingles Games

I'm upgrading it all the time, It's free for level 1-5, advancing monsters and adding templates. Paid membership allows 20 levels in 2 classes and 10 levels in a prestige classes.

http://www.dinglesgames.com/tools/NPCGenerator/pathfinder/

It doesn't *need* to be realistic. However, I'm a firm believer that you should start with reality and work your way away from it as need be. Why? Why do Sam and Frodo spend so much time looking for food? Why did Lovecraft use all those real-world science references? Why does Game of Thrones exist? Across all types of storytelling, the story is more emotionally powerful if it feels real. There are certainly limits as to how practical it is to incorporate realism, but again, reality should be the starting point.

As to how the verisimilitude is out of whack, D&D characters don't bleed, don't cry, can fall off a cliff without being harmed, rarely tire, and yet the exact number of times per day that can do their most useful ability is tracked meticulously. That's how.

Frankly, I don't think 4e made any progress on any of those fronts (nor did PF, which was the thread topic). Everyone's got their own experiences.

D&D needs a rebranding that makes it acceptable to a wider variety of people. Like you say, the audience is out there.

If Wotc really wants to put DND on the popular map, they'd go after the Harry Potter license with the gusto of a Beholder. Pay as much as they need to and begin a forgotten realms like line with it.

But I agree, the computer needs to be a more intracate part. I'd love some type of software where i can push a button that reads box text and its one of the cool voices like a patrick stewart reading it to hte players. This kind of add on stuff Id buy, and that doesnt stop the guy who cna only afford the pdf .

To make the game accessible, it just needs to be about as easy to learn as an RPG on a console or computer, but as engrossing and layered as it always has been. AI gave my GF the corebook for pathfinder for her birthday, i never realized it was 500 pages. She hasn't read much of it, andi get why. She says its just intimidating and she has no idea where to start. She learned more from me building a character with her layer by layer than from trying to get through hte corebook.

Thus, they need a system where players only need to decide, starting off 2 or 3 things starting off with no complex math. Weapon/item packages should be set for levels 1 to 10. A player should be able to get a character up and running in 10 minutes.

This is how video games and console games work. Even something as complex as Skyrim or Never Winter nights didnt take long to make a character. I never want my tabletop to be as shallow as a ton of MMOs, but tabletops can borrow heavily from the creation design of them. In mosto f these games, all stats (sometimes 10 or 15) are based on 3 or 4 stats. Ability trees work wonders, giving players choice without overwhelming them with choices. At every level, the player should only have to decide one thing. This one thing motivates everything else. Sure you have a lot of choices for that one thing, but, it is still just one thing.

Got instance, a spellcasting tree choice would have a list of spells received at each future level. These spells all relate with one another.