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D&D 4E What changes aren't being made in 4E that you think should be

Set

First Post
My list;

1) Less classes, more *options*;

I'd love to see the Barbarian's Rage ability and the Paladins 'holy powers' reduced to a set of Feats that would allow a standard Fighter to be able to be a Barbarian, or a Paladin, or a Monk, or a Ranger. If my bare-knuckled brawler is a beer-swilling berserker, then so be it, hand to hand damage like a Monk and Rage like a Barbarian, and that whole 'can't be lawful' vs. 'can't be chaotic' thing can go hang itself, 'cause he's *not* a Barbarian and he's *not* a Monk, he's a drunken Irishman with a chip on his shoulder!

Similarly, I don't see the need for Sorcerer's and Wizards to be entirely different classes, when there is really only one difference, the manner in which they prepare and cast their spells. Combining them into one 'arcanist' class, able to choose at first level if he's going to be a prepared spell caster, a spontaneous spell caster or use a mana point system, but having the same BAB, saves, hit points, skills, armor, weapons and class abilities (which means, yes, 'sorcerers' would get those Wizard bonus feats as well) would save a bit of space in the book that is, IMO, wasted on writing out the same class twice.

But core classes is only the tip of the iceberg. What I really would love to see dead and gone forever is the notion of Prestige Classes. Turn every worthwhile PrC ability into a feat that has whatever level of prerequisites make sense for it, and be done with it. No more of the Ranger 2 / Fighter 4 / Barbarian 4 / Frenzied Berserker 10 builds, because if I want all of that crap, I can just buy it seperately as feats, with a straight Fighter 20 build.

2) Alignments. Die, die, die!

As long as they are getting rid of 'Lawful' and 'Chaotic,' could they perhaps complete the thought and get rid of 'Good' and 'Evil?' 'Cause I've never seen them used right anyway. They're either ignored, or a straightjacket that inhibits roleplay, and leads to arguments between players because one of them did something stupid or counter-intuitive or disruptive and whipped out the old, "I'm a Paladin! I didn't have a choice but to be an obnoxious BBEG-baiting antisocial jerk who got us TPK'd!" or "I was in-character when my Rogue slit your throats and stole the McGufffin of Saving the World to sell for shiny platinum, condemning the world to Tharizdun's cold embrace!"

3) You don't know Jack;

Vancian spellcasting; I hated when it was the only game in town, since I've enjoyed a couple hundred fantasy novels, movies and / or game settings that *didn't* limit themselves to Jack Vance's unique mnemonic paradigm, and I always hated that D&D simply couldn't adequately represent any of the rest of the 99% of established magical fantasy archetypes because of Gygax's fascination with 'The Magic Goes Away.' *But,* to be completely contrary, it is what it is, and the tactical / strategic nature of selecting spells for the day is indeed an interesting challenge. After 20-odd years of Vancian spellcasting, I'd rather it not be abandoned at the crossroads, but simply be *an option* which I can choose not to use, while others, who like it, are free to use it as they always have.

4) One system to Rule them all!

Since 1st edition, starting with Unearthed Arcana (Drow and Duergar and Svirfneblin PCs!), to 2nd Editions Complete Book of Humanoids and 3rd Editions Savage Species, players have always loved to go that step beyond 'elf, dwarf, human, hobbit' and play something memorable, like the 1st edition Rogue's Gallery that included a Lizard Man and a Centaur as PCs. 3rd edition did a wonderful thing in giving 'monsters' attributes, and a consistent design philosophy, so that a DM could flip open the Monster Manual and say, 'I want an Ogre, whose actually an Aberration, because of some Far Realms taint.' and look up the attributes for an Aberration by Hit Die and work up the conversion. Easy as pie and so, so convenient for those of us who love to 'play under the hood' of the system and create our own stuff, since we have guidelines for what an Aberration or Dragon or Giant or Humanoid should have for BAB, saves, skills, etc. based on it's Hit Die and size. Wonderful stuff. I would love for 4th Edition to go that one step further down this glorious road, and make more and more 'monsters' playable, and further make the d20 system used by characters into the same d20 system used by NPCs, instead of the old-school 'two-games-in-one' approach, where a Magic User could cast a spell that reduced an enemies Strength score, but, OOPSY, not all monsters *had* Strength scores! Instead of two-games-in-one, 3.X fixed that, and the spells and abilities of monsters and PCs had the same effects, since the PCs and monsters used the same set of rules, for the first time ever. The first steps in this turning d20 into a single system, and not two occasionally incompatible systems, would be to get rid of LA (which was, IMO, a terrible kludge), and come up with some meaningful system of racial levels, that won't result in the strangeness of the current system, where a 1st level Paladin Wyrmling Gold Dragon is treated as a 13th level character, despite being 6 HD and a bit of a pushover even as a 6th level encounter, let along a 13th level one!

5) Less 'repeats;'

Just as I don't see the need for two nearly identical arcane casters, one preparing from a book and one casting spontaneously, I don't really care for the overuse of a single system. Currently, Bards, Clerics, Druids, Sorcerers and Wizards all use the spellcasting system (although Bards, with music, Clerics, with channeling, and Druids, with wild shape, have alternate systems that they also use). That's almost *half* the classes in the darn Players Handbook, and I'm not even counting Rangers and Paladins, who, inexplicably, *also* sit down at the beginning of each day and pray for specific spells that they may or may not actually need!

Clerics, in particular, should use a system other than spellcasting to achieve their effects. Base it on channeling, and use the precedent of Divine Feats. Any nice-nice Cleric will probably start out with a Feat that lets him burn 'turn' attempts into healing his allies (Lay on Hands). He might also pick up Divine Feats that let him burn 'turn' attempts to; Turn Undead, Cower the Infidel (fear), Call Down Holy Fire (flame strike), Smite the Wicked (smite), Bolster the Strong-Hearted (buff Strength / Constition?), etc, etc. He'll get bonus Feats like a Fighter, but only usable to purchase Divine 'channeling' Feats, and he'll be able to channel a number of times per day equal to his level plus his Cha modifier (and Extra 'Turning' will still be available, if he finds he needs more 'turn' attempts per day). He can retain his second-best status with armor, weapons, BAB and Hit Points, being a sub-par fighter who channels holy power into various effects. No spells. He prays as he channels his energy to smite, or heal, or rebuke the unclean, or whatever. The Cleric might also know some 'Rites,' long-casting effects such as exorcism or purging disease or feeding the hungry, the sorts of things that a Priest would know, but not be invoking during combat.

Druids could work similarly, able to use their own connection to nature to summon up natural forces (call lightning) or creatures (nature's ally) or even to summon the forces of nature within themselves (wild shape). Instead of just 'casting spells,' like a second-rate Sorcerer (with twice the hit points, lots of cool class powers, a kickbutt animal companion, better BAB and saves and an unlimited spell list), the Druid would actually be a discrete class of it's own, with it's own system of effects, relevant to it's specific role. Like the Cleric, 'Rites' would fill in the blanks for less combat-centric effects like purifying food or calling for rain or blessing the harvest.

Also in the vein of 'less repeats,' I don't need 10 different types of dragon, each with 12 age categories, in the Monster Manual. The twelve age categories can stay, but the energy type and shape of the breath weapon is a *detail,* not some momentous thing worthy of an entirely new writeup. By relegating such trivia to footnotes, the much shorter writeup would have more room to explain how this is a template, and that you can make dozens of different dragon types. I also don't see the need for forty-seven different types of elf, or book full of different flavors of 'scaly lizard dude,' or an endless parade of 'savage warlike humanoids.' Blackscale Lizardfolk? Coolness. Poison Dusk Lizardfolk, also, tres cool. And yet, these aren't 'generic' monsters, these are specific tweaks of a basic 'lizardfolk' archetype. The Monster Manual, IMO, should be setting-generic, filled with basic monster types, and bits of flavor text like, 'In the Realms, the Lizardfolk have purple eyes and black scales and call themselves the Wixiblifin and are all 30th level Wizards, descended from an ancient progenitor race that slipped on a bananna peel and fell into obscurity.'
 
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davethegame

Explorer
Jayouzts said:
My impression of everything I have heard thus far about 4E is that the changes that are being made are either fixing things that are not broken or are fixing things that could be easily remedied with houserules from Unearthed Arcana.

This is a criticism I really have never gotten. All the changes I've seen have comments on what the designers have identified as a problem and why they want to change it. You may not agree on what they identify as a problem, but I have yet to see the reason given as "this just needed to be changed."

Back on topic, I know the designers have identified too many prestige classes as a problem, but everything we've read has said that they're going to be adding plenty of new core classes. I agree that it got to overlord in 3E, since there were a number of concepts that were made into core classes that I felt should have just been PrCs. I think, however, the number of classes in 3E is going to be more palatable since they're very specifically trying to make each class feel and play differently.
 

Li Shenron

Legend
Szatany said:
Who's forcing you to use all that extra material? Are you complaining that there are too many car types in the world as well?

Unfortunately, in 4e they are removing entire group of spells and abilities from the PHB classes and push them to later books. There will likely be no summoning spells for instance, no polymorph, and no undead creations. So yes, you are forced to use extra material to just recreate the same archetypes of all previous editions (although there will be something new as well).

Rather than different cars, it is more like someone would remove a certain feature (like having a car radio, or an opening roof) to all available models for some time, and later make them available only together with a SUV or a 4x4.
 

Mort

Legend
Supporter
Li Shenron said:
Unfortunately, in 4e they are removing entire group of spells and abilities from the PHB classes and push them to later books. There will likely be no summoning spells for instance, no polymorph, and no undead creations. So yes, you are forced to use extra material to just recreate the same archetypes of all previous editions (although there will be something new as well).

Rather than different cars, it is more like someone would remove a certain feature (like having a car radio, or an opening roof) to all available models for some time, and later make them available only together with a SUV or a 4x4.

Now this is an extremely relevant criticism (or at least something to worry about) of 4e and probably deserves it's own thread. How much "well we'll address that later" type thinking is tolerable?

Another prime example of this problem is the fighter/mage - there have been some posts saying a swordmage class will be introduced but not in the 1st PHB. This leads to some conclusions (maybe jumping, maybe not):

1) you can't model a swordmage (fighter/mage?) with the initial mechanics - a very bad thing as I really like fighter/mages. If this is not the case, why introduce a swordmage?

2) you have to wait for a future supplement that may or may not satisfy your needs - something I hate (anyone remember when Palladium would site to books not yet written and then never actually write those books; WoTC is not palladium, but still).
 
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kennew142

First Post
Jayouzts said:
My impression of everything I have heard thus far about 4E is that the changes that are being made are either fixing things that are not broken or are fixing things that could be easily remedied with houserules from Unearthed Arcana.

IMO, the single worst thing about D&D 3e was the fact that stat bump items, cloaks of resistance, etc... were figured into a characters power level, making it well-nigh impossible to run a campaign that didn't include the magical Megalomart. I have tried (since 2000) to find a quick fix to this problem, but wasn't able to do so. The only solution I saw was the one the designers have taken - completely redesigning the system.

Furthermore, the number of house rules that would be required to balance out the unbalanced classes in D&D 3e would easily fill an entire volume. This too required a new edition.

Also, the small LotR size box that D&D was stuck in required a new edition to open it up to the whole range of fantasy gaming. The designers are addressing this problem by adding new and interesting races (as well as martial maneuvers) that appeal to a large swath of D&D gamers.

I have played D&D for decades (almost since its inception), but I found that there were flaws in the system. None were fatal flaws, but they were flaws nonetheless. I am glad that they are finally being addressed.
 

Greg K

Legend
What would I have wanted in addition to removal of Christmas tree syndrome

1) Fewer absolutes as per Sean Reynold's web article

2) Races: remove the non-biological functions

3) add cultural/environmental skill packages. The player chooses a package (or DM assigns packages to cultures if homebrewing a setting) that are added to race and provide a few skill ranks, a feat, and proficiency in a weapon (or second feat), common to all members of the culture.

4) Occupations per d20 Modern, but for a fantasy setting

5) Classes
- remove most class features like armor and starting weapons as automatic standard class features and give each class additional bonus feats for 1st level characters. Armor and weapons would be among the bonus feat choices for certain classes at first level.

and give bonus feats and talents choices for each class. A wizard choosing fighter as a new class could choose a weapon, an armor, or another combat feat rather than learnng all weapons and armor just by taking a level in the class

- classes use the poor save progression with the class taken as a first level character providing a one time bonus (or bonuses)

- every class gets minimum of 4 + int bonus skill points per level (x4 at first level)

- as for the classes themselves, either one of the following:

5a) 6 generic classes
- Adept: choose intelligence (Arcane), wisdom (Divine, Spirit) or charisma (Innate, Psionics, Ki) for spellcasting. Ex. priests, psychics, shaman's sorcerer, wizards,

- Expert: ex. cat burglars, nobles, scholars, spies,

- Warrior: barbarian warriors, duelists, gladiators, soldiers

- Martial Adept: blends aspects of Warrior and Adept with bard spell progression. choose intelligence (Arcane), wisdom (Divine) or charisma (Inate) for spellcasting: Ex. Battle sorcerers, Paladins, Rangers

- Physical Adept: blends aspects of Expert and Adept with bard spell progression. choose intelligence (Arcane), wisdom (Divine) or charisma (Inate) for spellcasting: Ex, bards, monks, niinja

- ? : Blends Martial and Expert role: ex. swashbucklers, martial rogues

or

5b) keep current class list. Make some changes and add some class variants and a couple of new classes

Barbarian
class variant: barbarian hunter (UA), urban barbarian

Bard
- focus spells on illusions and mind control
class variants:
- Bardic Sage (UA): as per UA
- Divine Bard (UA): as per UA, but also gains healing spells on the bard's list
- Savage Bard (UA), as per UA
- Skald : a non casting bard with fighter bonus feats when new spell level would be gained and maybe a better hit die
- troubador: gains bonus spells with bluffing, escape and movement

Cleric:
- lower hit die to d6
- leather armor only
- more skill points
- divine grace as per paladin
- turn rebuke as paladin (unless received as a domain ability)
- bonus divine feats or abilities based on domains every 5 levels
- spontaneous divine casting
- smaller spell lists based on deity's domains + spells for the following: augury/communing, blessing the faithful, cursing/punishing heretics and enemies (e.g., bestow curse, mark of justice) and planar ally (specific creatures associated with the deity),
- lower spell power at higher levels with non-spellcasters
- class variants: cloistered cleric (UA), martial cleric (better hit die and armor)

Druid
- spontaneous divine casting
- lower spell power at higher levels with non-spellcasters

Fighter
- class variant Thug (UA)

Paladins
- remove some abiities and give bards spell progression at first level
- class variant: the spellless paladin variant (Complete Champion)

Ranger
- remove some abilities and give bards spell progression at first level
- class variants: the spellless ranger variant f(Complete Champion), urban ranger (UA)

Rogue
-class variants: Martial Rogue (UA), Wilderness Rogue (UA)

Sorcerer
- additional class skill: Use Magical Device
- either both diplomacy and intimidate being class skills or the choice of substituting one for Bluff
- eschew materials at first level
- Bonus Metamagic feat at 5th level and every five additional levels
- Spell points w/ vitalizing (UA)
- lower spell power at higher levels to balance with non-spellcasters
class variants: battle sorcerer (UA)

Wizard
- lower spell power at higher levels to balance with non-spellcasters

Wizard Speicialists
- UA Specialist Wizard variant abilities become core
- - lower spell power at higher levels to balance with non-spellcasters

Introduce new classes
Martial Artist: non-mystical unarmed fighter
Monk Priest: as the OA shaman, with variants for arcane and divine
Shaman: done as green Ronin's Shaman class
Witch: done as green ronin's witch class

6) Weapon Groups from UA

7) Action Points

8) Skills
- Expanded Uses for skills collected from Complete Adventurer and Races of the Wild

9) Feats
a) Make core the following
- weapon style feats
- divine feats (excluding divine metamagic)

b) replace Improved Unarmed Strike with the brawl, combat ma, and defensive ma trees from d20 Modern

c) remove natural spell

10) Combat
- class based defense bonus
- armor as dr
- Book of Iron Might style rules for combat maneuvers
- hit points: Either

a) Remove them and replace with True20 Toughness Save ; or

b) keep hit points with the following
- 10+ con bonus hit points at first level and less hit points gained at each level (class based defense would reduce getting hit and dr from armor would reduce damage taken

- penalties when at 50% and 25% of hit points remaining hit points

- death and dying rules (UA): no more negative hit points. At O hit points start making saves to avoid falling unconcious, dying stabilize and death.

11) Magic
Divine Magic: I think spell levels per times a day good for prayers answered by the gods. So the only change I would want are:
- Spontaneous Divine Casting (UA):
- rework domain spell lists to incorporate new spellls that better fit the domains

- Arcane casting: I dislikethe current system. My choices:
a) Elements of Magic rME (for arcane) and Green Ronin's Psychic Handbook (or Psionics)
b) Spell points with vitalizing (UA) for arcane

12) Magic Item creation
- new rules get rid of experience point expenditure
 

Cadfan

First Post
Mort said:
Now this is an extremely relevant criticism (or at least something to worry about) of 4e and probably deserves it's own thread. How much "well we'll address that later" type thinking is tolerable?

Another prime example of this problem is the fighter/mage - there have been some posts saying a swordmage class will be introduced but not in the 1st PHB. This leads to some conclusions (maybe jumping, maybe not):

1) you can't model a swordmage (fighter/mage?) with the initial mechanics - a very bad thing as I really like fighter/mages. If this is not the case, why introduce a swordmage?

2) you have to wait for a future supplement that may or may not satisfy your needs - something I hate (anyone remember when Palladium would site to books not yet written and then never actually write those books; WoTC is not palladium, but still).

I'll bet cash that you can play a valid fighter/mage straight out of the PHB. The question is just this- what kind of fighter/mage do you want to be?

There are a lot of different types of fighter/mages. I'm betting that the "fighter who tosses a few fireballs around" and the "wizard who can do some wetwork with a sword" options will be playable straight out of the PHB.

Think of it in terms of class roles. If you're primarily a defender, and want to dip a little bit into arcane control, a fighter/wizard will probably work. If you're primarily a controller, but you want to dip a little bit into melee durability and defending, a wizard/fighter will probably work.

This is because wizard magic is aimed towards the controller role, and fighter prowess is aimed towards the defender role.

If you want to use magic to enhance your defending directly, you'll probably have to wait for the swordmage, a class that's designed to use arcane power in a defender role.

Did I make this point clear? I'm not sure I did... we have power sources, and we have roles. Right now we have arcane control, and arcane striking. If you want to diversify your defender to include those things, I bet you'll be able to. But if you want to diversify your defender to include arcane defending, you'll have to wait until its written.
 

Ragnar69

First Post
Mort said:
Another prime example of this problem is the fighter/mage - there have been some posts saying a swordmage class will be introduced but not in the 1st PHB. This leads to some conclusions (maybe jumping, maybe not):

1) you can't model a swordmage (fighter/mage?) with the initial mechanics - a very bad thing as I really like fighter/mages. If this is not the case, why introduce a swordmage?

2) you have to wait for a future supplement that may or may not satisfy your needs - something I hate (anyone remember when Palladium would site to books not yet written and then never actually write those books; WoTC is not palladium, but still).


1) In 4e, a fighter with mage training will be a fighter who uses some magical tricks when apropriate, i.e. firing magic missiles instead of pulling out a bow, using mage armor when there´s no time to don the full plate,...

A swordmage is a fighter who relies heavily on self-buffs to be able to melee efficently and will probably lack the "standard" wizard spells like sleep, magic missile etc.

I am very happy that a fighters melee potential won't be increased by slapping on wizard levels. I never liked the wizard spells that made him a better fighter than the fighter.

2) depends on what you expect from a fighter/mage. Martial might with a few arcane tricks or a self-buffing warrior?
An all-powerful gish that kills opponents as easily with the strokes of his mighty blade as with burning balls of fire? I hope that kind of character is gone :cool:
 

Insight

Adventurer
Folks, the 3E business model is still going to be used for 4E. All we can really hope is that somehow power creep will be less of an issue. Based on what has been released thus far, the jury is still out as to whether or not WOTC is prepared to deal with such an eventuality this far in advance.
 

Mort

Legend
Supporter
Cadfan said:
I'll bet cash that you can play a valid fighter/mage straight out of the PHB. The question is just this- what kind of fighter/mage do you want to be?

There are a lot of different types of fighter/mages. I'm betting that the "fighter who tosses a few fireballs around" and the "wizard who can do some wetwork with a sword" options will be playable straight out of the PHB.

Think of it in terms of class roles. If you're primarily a defender, and want to dip a little bit into arcane control, a fighter/wizard will probably work. If you're primarily a controller, but you want to dip a little bit into melee durability and defending, a wizard/fighter will probably work.

This is because wizard magic is aimed towards the controller role, and fighter prowess is aimed towards the defender role.

If you want to use magic to enhance your defending directly, you'll probably have to wait for the swordmage, a class that's designed to use arcane power in a defender role.

Did I make this point clear? I'm not sure I did... we have power sources, and we have roles. Right now we have arcane control, and arcane striking. If you want to diversify your defender to include those things, I bet you'll be able to. But if you want to diversify your defender to include arcane defending, you'll have to wait until its written.

I knew I'd regret throwing in the example - oh well. But you didn't really address the problem - a fighter/mage was "available" directly out of the 3.0 phb - it just wasn't a very good (or even viable) option. To get a viable option you had to wait for the prestige class patches (which were ok if a little inelegant).
You can talk about roles all you like but the fighter/mage, in some incarnation, has been an iconic D&D role and however they choose to model things in 4e (and yes I read the roles stuff) it should be a viable option.

Regardless, that wasn't the main point - the main question is: how much "well, we'll address that later" is tolerable? We won't really know the actual answer until we see the books but then it becomes a viable question.
 
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