What changes when you adjust a monster's level up or down?

[gaptooth]

I just got the the Monster Vault for Christmas, and it's missing something I thought would be in there: rules for customizing monsters or creating your own from scratch. Not a huge disappointment, but I'm curious. Is that covered by any of the Essentials products?

One thing I'm wondering about is what changes if you raise or diminish a monster's level. I'm running Keep on the Borderlands which includes a certain NPC who wasn't assigned stats for the first four chapters. I found a mention of the character in a Dungeon magazine article, which said to use stats for another creature in the MM, but drop it's level by three. The article included the stats that would be affected, but it would be good to know how to do this in other cases. How are a monster's attacks, defenses, and damage affected by its level? Are there any other stats that change?

Thanks!

 

[OnlineDM]

This is spelled out in the Dungeon Master's Guide, and the updated version is in the tables on page 40 of this document.

In a nutshell, when you change a monster's level by 1 (up or down), the following things change:

• All defenses change by 1
• Attack bonuses change by 1
• Damage changes by 1/2 (1 for every 2 levels)
• Initiative changes by 1/2
• Skill checks change by 1/2 (Perception, Stealth, etc.)
• Hit points change by 6 for Artillery and Lurkers, 8 for Skirmishers, Soldiers and Controllers, and 10 for Brutes

 

[Dice4Hire]

And the big recommendation is not to go more than 5 levels plus or minus this way.

Also, if going up a few levels(especially into another tier) you might want to upgrade conditions, like daze--> stun and up ongoing damage

But the document discusses most of this.

 

[gaptooth]

Thank you both for your insight! I don't have the DMG, and I couldn't tell if the Essentials line had an equivalent. I'm guessing the Rules Compendium is it?

Thanks again!

 

[Aegeri]

Ironically, this is something that isn't covered anywhere in essentials and really feels like something that should be in there.

 

[OnlineDM]

And the big recommendation is not to go more than 5 levels plus or minus this way.

Also, if going up a few levels(especially into another tier) you might want to upgrade conditions, like daze--> stun and up ongoing damage

But the document discusses most of this.

Excellent point. One of the worst experiences I ever had as a player was when an inexperienced DM took a level 14 monster and de-leveled it to level 6 and threw it at our party. This monster was not supposed to be a boss or anything like that, but it completely wrecked us.

The monster in question was a troll druid with an at-will power that created a zone in an area burst 1 within 10. It attacked each creature in the zone, dealing them damage and immobilizing them on a hit. If the creature started its turn in the zone, it took more damage. The zone was also difficult terrain until the end of the encounter. So, right off, if you get hit you're taking damage three times (once when hit, once when you start your next turn, and once when you start the turn after that because you're immobilized).

A power like that would be fine as an encounter or high-end recharge for a level 6 monster, but as an at-will it destroyed us. We escaped because the DM chose to have the monster run away. Otherwise, TPK.

Lesson: Be VERY careful when changing a monster's level significantly. The numbers aren't necessarily the only things that change with the monster's level.

 

[ourchair]

Lesson: Be VERY careful when changing a monster's level significantly. The numbers aren't necessarily the only things that change with the monster's level.

More importantly I think all DMs should know that the numbers are not the only thing that SHOULD change from level adjustments.

 

[Dungeoneer]

I just got the the Monster Vault for Christmas, and it's missing something I thought would be in there: rules for customizing monsters or creating your own from scratch. Not a huge disappointment, but I'm curious. Is that covered by any of the Essentials products?

One thing I'm wondering about is what changes if you raise or diminish a monster's level. I'm running Keep on the Borderlands which includes a certain NPC who wasn't assigned stats for the first four chapters. I found a mention of the character in a Dungeon magazine article, which said to use stats for another creature in the MM, but drop it's level by three. The article included the stats that would be affected, but it would be good to know how to do this in other cases. How are a monster's attacks, defenses, and damage affected by its level? Are there any other stats that change?

Thanks!

Monsters adjusted to a higher level should be hairier/have a greater number of tentacles.

 

[Nullzone]

Alternately to spending a lot of time adjusting monster stats for adjusted levels, try looking for another monster that fits the level and role you want and reskin it. Nobody has to know that the goblin BBEG standing in front of your PCs used to be a troll.

This has to be done carefully as well since some monster types are tweaked specifically for their flavor characteristics, but a little attention to detail can tell you what was tweaked and you can easily revert it.

 

[CovertOps]

This is spelled out in the Dungeon Master's Guide, and the updated version is in the tables on page 40 of this document.

In a nutshell, when you change a monster's level by 1 (up or down), the following things change:

• All defenses change by 1
• Attack bonuses change by 1
• Damage changes by 1 ******
• Initiative changes by 1/2
• Skill checks change by 1/2 (Perception, Stealth, etc.)
• Hit points change by 6 for Artillery and Lurkers, 8 for Skirmishers, Soldiers and Controllers, and 10 for Brutes

Just a correction from the MM3 damage expressions. A good PDF chart was made and posted over at http://slyflourish.com/master_dm_sheet.PDF All it's missing is the difference between monster types for HPs (Artillery, Brute, etc.) as they are listed as low, medium, high which probably equate to 6, 8 and 10 HPs/level of the different types (didn't actually check the math).