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D&D 5E What DM flaw has caused you to actually leave a game?

Doc_Klueless

Doors and Corners
Supporter
I seldom leave games. I usually find something that amuses me.

However, there is one thing that for sure will make me not come: devaluing Social Skills. If I have to roll to Hit, I should be able to roll to Deceive or Inspire or what not. That's why there are Social Skills in games! Because the character I'm playing is smarter, suaver, etc. than I am. If I ask if I can use my skill at Diplomacy and I get: "No, just roleplay it." I'm not coming back.

Now if the response is along the lines of "Tell me what you're gonna do and I'll tell ya what to roll," or "Roleplay it or tell me what you're gonna do to see if you get Dis-/Advantage," I'm game. At least, then I know that the skills my character has will have some impact on the situation.
 

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You do realise that the DMG is filled with ideas on how to make the game your own (from settings, monster modification, optional & additional rules, level of magic within the campaign, designing treasures, backgrounds, races, classes, subclasses and spells...etc).
Yeah, but as I stated before, I'm only interested in playing official campaigns / modules.

This slavish desire to stick to RAW is not even demanded by the designers.
Indeed, but it's demanded by me.
 

Sadras

Legend
Yeah, but as I stated before, I'm only interested in playing official campaigns / modules.
Indeed, but it's demanded by me.

And that is fair enough. Given your preferred style of roleplaying, out of curiosity, may I ask about your roleplaying background? i.e. when did you get into the hobby?
 
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And that is fair enough. Given your preferred style of roleplaying, out of curiosity, may I ask about your roleplaying background? i.e. when did you get into the hobby?
I think the stronger influence here is from the background that I'm a game designer myself (for RPG video games). As such I probably value game designer decisions much higher than anyone else who is not a game designer.

Another background that's relevant is that I've worked on an open source project to emulate an MMORPG. You'd be surprised but there those rule discussions were pure chaos. What if the MMORPG you emulate has a bug itself? Do you emulate the bug or fix it? Is it even a bug or feature? Would fixing the bug ruin balance? Nobody was happy, so we had to rule that everything needs to be exactly as the original, not a single change allowed. And that enabled everyone to work together on the project in agreement.

As for Pen&Paper background: I knew D&D video games as a child already, but those were way too hard, I couldn't even win the first battle in most of them, so I quickly lost interesting and went to play JRPG instead. Already with age of 5 or so I started to design games myself (it was mostly creating prototypes for video games drawn on paper with pen). When I heard about Pen&Paper first, I tried to get into it, but the rules seemed way too complex, so I never really played. Then one day, I see a "Forum RPG" which was basically PbP Pen&Paper but without rules. That was pretty fun, but I also found it difficult to decide who wins a battle without rules, because that would only work if a player gave in or decided the monster is defeated. So with my game designer focus I of course started to brainstorm how to make an easy ruleset that is still clear. I've created tons of rulesets and tried out some occassionally, but never was really satisfied fully and player kept disappearing too which killed my motivation. When D&D 5e came I read an article on how it's much easier to learn and you even get the basic rules for free. So I was interested in that and read the basic rules. After 2 days I felt confident I could use them. I tried to find a DM that has the same rule-strictness as me and is looking for players for official adventure paths, but I quickly learned that rule-strict DMs that DM official adventure paths are in high demand. That's why I decided to bite the bullet and be DM myself, to make at least some people happy to have such a DM. I ordered the Starter Set and started a recruitment thread. After only two days there were already like 30 applications, so I picked the 4 most promising players and started playing with them. After 2 years we finished the adventure (TPK at final boss) and I got Princes of the Apocalypse and started DMing that which is going for more than 2 years now.

Still haven't found a DM I'd like to play with, but I'm still looking for one occassionally.
 

machineelf

Explorer
I tend to ask.

Example from a couple sessions ago.

My sorceress got ko to zero hp and went down.
PC cleric healed me.
Another npc took ranged shot at me from a distance before i got up.
Saw GM grabbing ine die.
"Are they shooting with disad?"
Gm paused...then said
"Because you are prone?"
Nodded.
GM griped about it "doesnt make sense"
To which i said "do whatever" and let it go.
This was a case where it was obvious he just didnt remember the rule for prone.


Same GM last game when my pc bite by giant spider asked for save vs poison (made) then stopped to tell me it said i should take half but he was making it zero.
My response...
"Give me half if you want"

My preference would have been half actually. It was a fight we would win anyway and it just made it seem more "given to us" than "won".

But i make a point to stay in player mode not gm mode when playing.

I think that's fair. My policy is somewhat context dependent. I would definitely never question a DM or offer them my thoughts on a rule without being asked if it's a group of people I've never played before and we weren't close friends. Among my current group, we've been close friends and have played together for years. So It's understood and accepted that we help each other out with remembering rules when someone has overlooked something.

I imagine we're on the same page, but I'll say just for my own sake, my advice is more a guideline than a "you must do this, this way, all the time" kind of statement. But listening to some of the responses in this thread, I felt it should be something said, that people might want to put on the brakes a little bit before jumping to correct a DM, even when the DM has clearly gotten a rule wrong.

In my experience, even when the DM is wrong on a rule, and the player is well meaning, it can still hit raw emotions and come across as a little pompous, even when the player didn't mean it to be. I also firmly believe the DM is the master of the rules. So even a mistake is now the rule for that moment, and I won't say a word (with a new DM who hasn't asked my advice.) So with new DMs and new groups I haven't played with before, unless I'm asked for help on a rule, I keep my mouth shut and act like the rules are whatever the DM says they are no matter what.

In your case, in your context with friends, it sounds perfectly Ok for you to have reminded your DM about the rule they apparently forgot. It's unfortunate he griped about it. I am always legitimately happy when my players help me not forget a rule. But that gets us to another important topic about DM neutrality. :)
 

JediSoth

Voice Over Artist & Author
Epic
The only time I've ever left a game due to a DM's style (rather than leaving because I realized I could no longer handle a noon - midnight+ game followed by a 40 minute drive home), was when I realized I wasn't having fun micromanaging my inventory by location on my character and having to make item saving throws for EVERYTHING when caught in an AOE attack. That level of granularity, while "realistic*," and a legit part of many AD&D 1st ed. games, just wasn't something I was ever into. I never used those rules when I played AD&D regularly and having to actually play a character by those rules, I realized that I wasn't missing out on anything. Plus, the entire campaign revolved around the DM's daughter's character and the rest of us were just supporting characters... but I could have dealt with that on its own.

* within a certain level of realism
 
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Celebrim

Legend
Game designer is not a high status occupation. Many of us have better and more lucrative things to do with our lives. Doesn't mean we can't design games if we wanted to.

I can just imagine the conversation with my wife if I decided to leave my job because I wanted to become a pen and paper game designer. My brother has often chided me for not trying to get published, and my response has always been my expected return on initial investment is under $1 an hour. There is no way the writing would be anything other than a labor of love.

But I've a few writing examples here on EnWorld where I've helped somebody or shared something just for fun, and I'm fully arrogant enough to say that I don't think that you can tell my stuff from professional content.

My hat's off to anyone living that dream, and huge props to Tracy Hickman for packing his wife, his baby, and a bunch of manuscripts in a car and heading to Wisconsin, but yeah... that ain't going to be me.
 

Celebrim

Legend
Yeah, but as I stated before, I'm only interested in playing official campaigns / modules.

Indeed, but it's demanded by me.

I'm totally OK with both choices. In fact, I probably could enjoy playing at a table where both were true provided the DM had no major flaws.

I'm just not nearly as picky regarding style, and actually prefer a DM to express more of his artistic personal style when running a game. The best DMs I've had, even when running official content, personalized them and expanded on them and developed them far beyond what a publishing company could afford to print. I don't think it's fair to judge content by what's in a 32 page or 64 page folder, or even a single hard cover book. I imagine the designer themselves, left out far more of their ideas than what they could fit into the manuscript.
 

oreofox

Explorer
I think the stronger influence here is from the background that I'm a game designer myself (for RPG video games). As such I probably value game designer decisions much higher than anyone else who is not a game designer.

Another background that's relevant is that I've worked on an open source project to emulate an MMORPG. You'd be surprised but there those rule discussions were pure chaos. What if the MMORPG you emulate has a bug itself? Do you emulate the bug or fix it? Is it even a bug or feature? Would fixing the bug ruin balance? Nobody was happy, so we had to rule that everything needs to be exactly as the original, not a single change allowed. And that enabled everyone to work together on the project in agreement.

As for Pen&Paper background: I knew D&D video games as a child already, but those were way too hard, I couldn't even win the first battle in most of them, so I quickly lost interesting and went to play JRPG instead. Already with age of 5 or so I started to design games myself (it was mostly creating prototypes for video games drawn on paper with pen). When I heard about Pen&Paper first, I tried to get into it, but the rules seemed way too complex, so I never really played. Then one day, I see a "Forum RPG" which was basically PbP Pen&Paper but without rules. That was pretty fun, but I also found it difficult to decide who wins a battle without rules, because that would only work if a player gave in or decided the monster is defeated. So with my game designer focus I of course started to brainstorm how to make an easy ruleset that is still clear. I've created tons of rulesets and tried out some occassionally, but never was really satisfied fully and player kept disappearing too which killed my motivation. When D&D 5e came I read an article on how it's much easier to learn and you even get the basic rules for free. So I was interested in that and read the basic rules. After 2 days I felt confident I could use them. I tried to find a DM that has the same rule-strictness as me and is looking for players for official adventure paths, but I quickly learned that rule-strict DMs that DM official adventure paths are in high demand. That's why I decided to bite the bullet and be DM myself, to make at least some people happy to have such a DM. I ordered the Starter Set and started a recruitment thread. After only two days there were already like 30 applications, so I picked the 4 most promising players and started playing with them. After 2 years we finished the adventure (TPK at final boss) and I got Princes of the Apocalypse and started DMing that which is going for more than 2 years now.

Still haven't found a DM I'd like to play with, but I'm still looking for one occassionally.

Your experience being mostly from video games while growing up (and making them in the present) makes sense in regards to your desire for adherence to strict rules. Myself, I absolutely love rpg video games (they are my favorite genre), but sometimes the confines of the rules grates on me. That's why I love tabletop rpgs. I can modify it to my desires. Which I have done with my recent and current campaign. It is heavily homebrewed, and as far as I can tell, my players are enjoying themselves. The majority of them are returning players from all my previous failed campaigns (due to others just not showing up because of holidays, which are unfortunately coming up again soon, but these are the ones that stuck around and wanted to continue). So I am doing something right.

I am not saying your strictness is bad, as sometimes it can be nice to play strictly by the rules. But sometimes what the game designers come up with just doesn't mesh with you, your players, the world you came up with, etc. So, that's why I changed quite a few rules. As a DM, it can be a nice change of pace to go strictly by the book. Lets your mind focus on other things, like the adventure.


As for the topic on hand: I am basically just a DM. I don't play much anymore, especially since 5e came out. Back in Pathfinder I was a player quite often. The only thing that made me leave a game was the playstyles of the other players. They just didn't mesh with my own. I did make the mistake of sticking it out for one campaign, and that campaign obliterated any desire to ever play Pathfinder again. The adventure path ended a couple months after Advanced Class Guide came out, which had classes I was interested in, but the players from that Wrath of the Righteous AP killed that edition. It lasted a year (which I though was a bit short for a published AP, hearing others saying their games lasted 2+ years playing weekly, but there was absolutely 0 RP going on, much to my and the DM's disappointment), and I had lost interest about 4 months in, but I stuck it out because the DM was a pretty cool guy. I wished I had quit after those 4 months, then maybe I would still enjoy the system.

As a DM, I have "left" games (aka cancelled/ended them) of my own decision twice. Both times were because of cheating players. The downside of running published adventures. Both times, the players in question read ahead and knew where hidden things were located. I made up some excuse like my work schedule became unreliable, so I had to end the game. I felt bad, but I will not tolerate cheating.
 

Celebrim

Legend
We disagree.

When a character rolls to hit and gets a 2 and misses then rolls a 19 and gets a miss, do you accuse him of metagaming if he draws different conclusions from those attacks? If he decides after the 19 missed "better get advantage or switch things up" but didnt after the 2 missed, do you bring down the metagaming thunder?

I'm a pretty hard core simulationist, and I believe that the purpose of game rules is to create a model of the world. For most things that we are modelling there should be a certain verisimilitude to the real world. That is the mechanics should model our own life experiences so that the results are familiar to us. You implicitly understand this when you write:

In almost every task i have attempted and most challenging tests or tasks, i have left it with a good ferling, a goid sense of how i did.

So I think we are in pretty strong agreement about what the process of play and the rules (ei, the fortune test and the resolution mechanics) are trying together to achieve.

Now consider the case you offered up as your first example, that of employing a weapon. When you employ a weapon against a target, isn't it the case that you get very immediate feedback regarding whether you hit or did not hit the target? You can in fact see that your blow landed, or that the arrow hit the bull's eye or otherwise know that you did well. So it's not at all wrong and indeed feels correct that a PC should see the result of his dice roll and have some feel for how he's doing.

But my contention is that not every real world test works that way - which is in fact something you seem to concede.

On occasion i was wrong.

Read that as "i misread the DC".

That's one example and one possible explanation but I don't think that is the sole explanation. Quite often in life you get things wrong, and sometimes you have a great feeling that you did well on a task which has a low DC and yet it turns out that you did poorly. There is actually an interesting psychological phenomenon called the Dunning-Kruger effect where the less skilled you are at something and the less well you do at something, the more confident you are that you did well at it.

With a little reflection I don't think it will be hard to remember cases where you thought you were doing well, only to discover you didn't. In my case I think of things like math exams where I made careless mistakes, programs I wrote that had stupid thoughtless errors in them, and playing 'pin the tail on the donkey' and thinking I was doing well when in fact I was wildly off. I don't think you can explain those just as 'misjudging the DC'.

It's my contention that in cases where the character can receive no immediate feedback as to how well they are doing, that the player should also receive no immediate feedback as to how well they are doing. So for a 'move silently' check or an attack roll or a climb check, sure I have no problem with the player rolling their own dice because as in real life, that character should be getting some sort of immediate feedback.

But in real life you have no way of knowing how well you are searching something. There is plenty of psychological experiments showing that people wildly misjudge how well they remember a scene or took in the details of something. How could you possibly know you were missing some obvious detail? I mean, haven't you searched a refrigerator before and felt you'd done so thoroughly, only to discover upon second look that the thing you were looking for was at eye level on the top shelf right in the front? Someone else pointed it out to you and you were like, "Oh that was obvious." It wasn't that the DC was higher than you thought it was, you just rolled poorly on your search check and missed an obvious detail. That sort of thing happens all the time. I would think life itself would refute your assertion without me having to.

A character swings his axe and rolls a 2. Do Many GMs narrate that as "for some totally unknowable reason your swing misses and you have to act in character like it hit or we are gonna have a metagaming problem"?

Do you now have some idea how ridiculous this example is? Do you think I narrate an axe swing like that or ever roll the dice for a PC's ax swing in secret away from the player? To be quite blunt, you think you did really well in offering up this as an argument, but you actually "rolled a 1" and completely fumbled it. Yes, obviously for an axe swing a PC gets immediate visual feedback on the axe swing so there is no harm in giving the player the same immediate feedback. But that example only serves to show just how little you've actually considered this question.

PS: "i have left it with a good ferling, a goid sense of how i did" - Did you have a good sense of how well you'd spelled your response as well?
 
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