What do I want? An apology.

[Ghendar]

Define a "Lot" of other gamers. Given Dragon's readership, a "lot" is a very small percentage.

And because I can't define "a lot" that makes me and others like me who support a print mag insignificant then?

We seems to have come full circle. Now those of us who support a print Dragon mag are being derided and looked down upon. Kudos, my friends, kudos.

 

[DonTadow]

Imagine, for a moment, that you're a huge fan of Batman. You grew up reading Batman, Batman has a very strong personal meaning to you, and you eagerly await each month's installment of Detective Comics. And for the sake of this discussion, let's say that sales of said comic are on a major upswing.

Then, one day, out of the blue and regardless of the fact that Batman is selling well, the current management of DC drops the comics and excises Batman from all current and future publications -- although they give vague hints that Batman will be back some time in the future in a blue and red costume, and (because it's so much cooler) able to fly!

Is the current management of DC comics within its legal rights? Yeah. But they neither created Batman nor put him into his place of prominence -- they inherited both! Does the owner of a Picasso, Van Gogh, or Stradivarius have an obligation as its custodian, or are they free to trash it as the piece's owner? How about the owner of Batman?

Are you, as the Bat-fan, going to be upset? I would expect so.

Might you want an apology from the current management of DC for obliterating an established classic? Vigalanc

-The Gneech

You said batman because he's a larger than life hero, but in no way does that equate to dungeon and dragon to the real world, or even the dungeons and dragons world. In the comic world eveyrone knows batman. In the d and d world only a fraction of people subscribed or even picked up the magazine.

This always happens in comics. Popular character series disappear with only a promise from marvel or dc that the character will be back in some form or shape. Vigalance gave you a really good example of how this happens all the time in comics.

BAtman?? unchanged. Lets drop the comic analogies because I've learned that when talking to serious comic book fans you have to know your stuff. Batman started out as a gun toting rout'em tout'em viglante. He got friendly and lovable. Then dark again. Then replaced... then came back.. the replaced again... then nice. .. then bad again now...well lets say that he hardly stays the same. Again, this analogy far more supports the notion of getting use to changes in media than the delusion that things stay the same for hundreds of years.
It's good to be emotional, but don't confuse your emotions with the bottom line for a companies business decisions. Wotc doesn't provide d and d players with what they want. It provides a majority of its consumers and those it would like to be consumers with what they want.

 

[Gundark]

No one deserves an apology for this any more than they would deserve an apology from Burger King if they stopped selling whoppers.

I liked Dragon and Dungeon. I'm sad they're gone. But WotC doesn't owe me anything. Just like I don't owe them anything. If they want my money, they have to earn it.

QFT. While I was sad to see the print versions of Dungeon and Dragon go away (although I didn't buy Dragon). I think it's best to see the full scope of what WotC does before I do any boycotting.

WotC doesn't owe us anything. I don't owe them anything.

 

[Morrus]

Then, one day, out of the blue and regardless of the fact that Batman is selling well, the current management of DC drops the comics and excises Batman from all current and future publications -- although they give vague hints that Batman will be back some time in the future in a blue and red costume, and (because it's so much cooler) able to fly!

Is the current management of DC comics within its legal rights? Yeah. But they neither created Batman nor put him into his place of prominence -- they inherited both!

C'mon, man. Put the hyperbole aside and look at the realism for a moment. Bob Kane invented Bataman, sure. DC is who spent millions and millions of dollars over the years, hiring the best artists and authors and marketing people, who are responsible for the fact that you've ever even heard of Batman.

 

[Vigilance]

People need to realize there's a difference between enjoying something, being the "end user" for lack of a better term, and owning it.

You go to watch the movie. You don't get to decide how it ends. Sure, express your displeasure with how it ended, but don't act like you were somehow betrayed by the movie.

Same with a magazine or a comic. They can cancel it at any time, or change it around. Nothing in life is guaranteed.

Just like my Polyhedron sub that became Dungeon/Poly, and then just Dungeon.

Too many people apparently had the idea that they owned Dragon, rather than just using it.

WotC doesn't owe anyone an apology, because they never promised us the magazines would be around eternally to begin with.

 

[Maggan]

Hrm. I'm not sure how I could make it clearer.

Dragon & Dungeon gone = Batman gone

Online Initiative = Batman back at some future time in red and blue costume + flight (i.e., not really Batman, just called that)

-The Gneech

Yeah I got that, I didn't get the "excising Batman from current and future publications" analogy, since Dragon and Dungeon are still published until spetember (?) and then the content and possible the brands is moved over to the DI.

/M

 

[Sledge]

Why can't the digital initiative articles have numbers assigned to them? Or just reference the specific article: the equivalent to saying, "hey, remember Dragon #72 with the Cavalier" would be "hey, remember the article with the Cavalier" and everyone will still know what you're talking about--they'll even be able to do a quick online search for it.

Well the frequent and sporadic sounding updates that have been promised/threatened negate a numbering system (gee was that in article 3206a or 3213b?) and the quick search (assuming search is fixed) will then bring up every article with "cavalier" in it, and no way of knowing which one is accurate. Further in conversation it will be truly impossible to reference the article as most of us don't carry around pocket internet devices to google at the drop of a hat... although the sensible ones do.

All in all however this issue seems a minor annoyance and not on par with the disturbing stuff that has come up.

 

[Sledge]

With reading the interview its pretty clear that wizards will not apologize. They not only expected the backlash, but they didn't care. They have known for over a year the decision here and had nothing to offer when it came out. The interview also acknowledges that a year after deciding, their staff are still upset about it. As upset as the community apparently.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

Showing up at the game with a copy of the magazine in your hand, everyone leaning 'round to have a look.

versus

Showing up at the game with your notebook, hey, I hope there's a WiFi hotspot near the store. Oh crap, there goes my battery, who's got an extension cord? Are we back up? Okay...dang this must be like 1mbit...this is taking forever to lo-oh, crap, there goes IE...hang on...shoot, took explorer down with it...let me reboot. Okay...anyway, uh, who's got the new minis pa-OK we're back up. Let me sign in. Oh dang it that IS SO my password. Stupid...let me ... okay, there...waiting...waiting. THERE! There it is! Yeah, that thing. Yeah. That's cool.

Oh, come on. How about making a more fair comparison; replace the "Showing up at the game with a copy of the magazine in your hand, everyone leaning 'round to have a look" after someone asks "hey, didja see issue 72?" with "Umm, yeah, y'see, I dumped a bowl of Cocoa Puffs on it, and now the pages are all stuck together. And 59? The one with the big Traveller adventure? Well, it was really cool, but I can't find it. I think it might've gotten recycled. Let me check the garage...ahh, jeez, they're all mildewed." Then I can swoop in all White Knight-like and say "hey, gather round the 'puter; I have the pdfs of both from the Dragon Archive." Or whatever electronic collection method they choose to use for the DI.

 

[Maggan]

You go to watch the movie. You don't get to decide how it ends. Sure, express your displeasure with how it ended, but don't act like you were somehow betrayed by the movie.

Make me think about the prequel Star Wars movies and that controversy.

/M