What do the PCs find in a City of the Jann?

Celebrim

Legend
Makes sense. But why not consider variants of the planar philosophical factions?

Because it's not at all clear that 'Planescape' exists in Quickleaf's setting or that even if it did that the Sigil factions would be greatly influential in the culture of the Jann. There is certainly no evidence that they are highly influential in the City of Brass or other civilization that Qaybar would be in close contact with.

Adapted for the Jann ways of life in general and Inner Planes in general, of course. After all, the Inner planes obviously differ from the Outer, and both removed enough for the local branches to retain differences and invite specialization.

The Sigil factions are loosely related to the great wheel and outer planes. You say yourself, the Inner Planes - which dominate the outlook of Qaybar by necessity - are obviously different. For one thing, many of the Sigil factions are dominated by their concerns about the divine, which is natural given the 'powers' dominance of the Outer Planes. It's not at all obvious that the Jann give a darn about the gods, or - being genie - would need to.

Finally, I'm not that impressed by the Sigil factions as concepts. Many of them I find terribly redundant, and when they aren't redundant they are also not mutually exclusive. It's not clear why the claims of one faction would necessarily be rejected by the claims of another faction. So it's often not all clear why something like the 'Bleak Cabal' and the 'Athar' should be in conflict, or why you couldn't belong to both - and also the 'Revolutionary League', the 'Sign of One', the 'Doomgaurd', the 'Society of Sensation', and the 'Xaositects' all at the same time. It's not like seven actually advocate anything particularly mutually exclusive. It's not impossible or even improbable to be both an existentialist, a nihilist, and a hedonist at the same time. Unlike the 'political' parties, it's not really clear what sort of policy the Sigil factions would necessarily advocate for. Even the Harmonium's overtly political assimilationist policy doesn't seem to have an ideological core to it. Do they believe in themselves or do they believe in some higher truth? If the former, then how are they all that different from the Fated, and if the later how do they justify their actions?

I don't know, I just never found the Planescape factions all that very interesting, and indeed less interesting than the 9 alignments of standard D&D.

UPDATE: In reading after my reply, I notice that TSR/WotC must have thought much the same thing, because apparently in the 1998 'Faction War' supplement (which I hitherto had not been exposed to) and in Dragon magazine article from 2004 they officially killed off most of the factions and removed the rest from places of influence in Sigil society.
 
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TBeholder

Explorer
Because it's not at all clear that 'Planescape' exists in Quickleaf's setting
It's reasonable to assume Al-Qadim as written until noted otherwise.
or that even if it did that the Sigil factions would be greatly influential in the culture of the Jann.
Oh, they won't be. But they are widespread among the planewalkers in general. Also, those philosophies are generic enough.
There is certainly no evidence that they are highly influential in the City of Brass or other civilization that Qaybar would be in close contact with.
City of Brass is busy with internal politics and conquests on its own plane.
The Sigil factions are loosely related to the great wheel and outer planes.
A few specific ones. Xaositects, Harmonium, Athar, Signers (due to "power of belief") - yes, of course. But others are already more interested in the Inner planes - like Doomguard (Negative Quasielemental planes), Dustmen (Negative Energy), Godsmen (Ethereal). The rest may have specific interest here or there. Not much to do for the Anarchists on the Inner Planes, but then there's the City of Brass, for one.
You say yourself, the Inner Planes - which dominate the outlook of Qaybar by necessity - are obviously different.
Yup. But how and why different?
E.g. there certainly will be Sensates. But the Sensates who hang out on the Inner planes to begin with would probably be not big on the feasts, but come there for the great wild elemental landscapes and related experiences - and even the more "boring" ones would be focused on things like sight-seeing at the Radiance or experimental cuisine via protomatter shaping.
Signers - perhaps not much, but those who would be interested in extreme (as in, up to making fancy demiplanes) creative expression. Jann? Maybe. Especially since as planewalkers they can more easily find eager fans encouraging them. If a genie sorcerer ever subscribes to "mad artist" thing... that's going to end in about as much of unhinged !!fun!! as a Reigar. :heh:

Finally, I'm not that impressed by the Sigil factions as concepts. Many of them I find terribly redundant, and when they aren't redundant they are also not mutually exclusive. It's not clear why the claims of one faction would necessarily be rejected by the claims of another faction.
They aren't. All factions are assigned some natural allies.
So it's often not all clear why something like the 'Bleak Cabal' and the 'Athar' should be in conflict,
They aren't. Generally speaking. :erm:
or why you couldn't belong to both
Because if you are Athar, you are fired up about the deities and finding alternatives to them - which implies claiming to know as everything "should be" rather than admitting it should not be in any particular way. If you're a Bleaker, the whole storm in a teacup the Athar raise is even more meaningless and delusional than almost everything else.
- and also the 'Revolutionary League', the 'Sign of One', the 'Doomgaurd', the 'Society of Sensation', and the 'Xaositects' all at the same time.
Because they are philosophies and beliefs, not clubs. Something is more important.
They are generic enough to overlap a lot, but there are defining differences. So, people may agree on almost everything in general, but see different sides of questions as more important. And prefer some or other methodology - e.g. Godsmen vs. Cyphers ("big picture" vs. "here and now") or Cyphers vs. Sensates ("be a part of the action" vs. "observe/experience it all, don't get distracted").
 

Quickleaf

Legend
While I'm a huge Planescape fan [MENTION=41606]TBeholder[/MENTION] (just google "enworld 5e planescape conversion" and you'll see my thread pop up – I used to have everything handily linked in my sig, but database crash deleted that)....I happen to agree with [MENTION=4937]Celebrim[/MENTION] that differentiating Qaybar, City of the Jann, from Sigil, City of Doors is the better move.

Planescape factions are great for a setting in which you want to deconstruct fantasy philosophy. That feels Planescape-y. However, even using 5th edition planar arrangement in an Al-Qadim game like I am (which is reminiscent of the Planescape Great Wheel), the planar factions wouldn't feel Al-Qadim-y. They wouldn't feel apropos of an Arabian Adventure or Sword-and-Sandals or whatever you want to call the motif.

Where the (perhaps simply named) Transcendence, Neutrality, Equality, and Elemental Partisan parties succeed is that they feel more at home in the Al-Qadim setting because they make sense for the Jann of Qaybar.

That's not to say that you can't adapt Qaybar for your own campaign and add some planar faction flavor, however, just that isn't the direction I'm working in.
 

Celebrim

Legend
I think the simpler answer is that there are no references to Sigil or Planeswalkers in 'City of Delights'. Qaybar, as an Al-Qadim themed city, ought to seem more like a variation of Huzuz, with perhaps even more Jann and Genies, than it ought to be a variation of Sigil. People in Sigil like to think that they are the center of everything, but they ought to know that in an infinite multiverse, wherever you are standing is just as much the center as anywhere else.
 

Quickleaf

Legend
[MENTION=4937]Celebrim[/MENTION] I was just finishing up the encounter tables for Qaybar – interesting designing tables for the city proper and its presence on the Border Ethereal! – and I had a quick question:

Does this entry seem reasonable to you? Especially for the various militias?

Obviously the specifics (number encountered, type of monster/NPC) will depend on edition, but I'm asking in broad strokes.

Thieves & Troublemakers (d6)
  1. The elusive “Chimney Sweeps” (led by Rafi Baz) out to oppose perceived enemies of the Emir, including 1d6 janni* and 2d6 air genasi/human scouts.
  2. The intimidating “Firebugs” (led by Mad Haddad) out to protect rights of fire creatures, including 1d6 janni* and 2d6 fire genasi/human thugs.
  3. The cultish “Liberators” (led by Riptide), determined to root out efreet influence by violence if necessary, including 1d6 janni* and 2d6 elven/water genasi thugs.
  4. 1d6 perfumed cloaked ghasts and 2d6 wererats serving Ibn Natn hunting for arcane lore.
  5. Zahranis consisting of 2d6 janni* seeking to destabilize the ruling class with violent raids.
  6. A party of 1d4+2 NPCs of 9th-12th level after a specific treasure in Qaybar.
 
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Celebrim

Legend
[MENTION=4937]Celebrim[/MENTION] I was just finishing up the encounter tables for Qaybar – interesting designing tables for the city proper and its presence on the Border Ethereal! – and I had a quick question:

Does this entry seem reasonable to you? Especially for the various militias?

I guess it depends on what you intend the table to accomplish. Why are we rolling on this table? What question is it intended to answer?

Is this for example one answer to the question, "What 4 groups of interest are hanging around in the marketplace?"
Is this answering the question, "When the party walks from A to B in Qaybar, what interesting encounter is offered to them along the way?"
Is this answering the question, "Someone has just waylaid the party. While they are rolling for initiative figure out who and what?"
Is this answering the question, "I need an opposing front for tonight's session, who should it be?"
 

Quickleaf

Legend
I guess it depends on what you intend the table to accomplish. Why are we rolling on this table? What question is it intended to answer?

Is this for example one answer to the question, "What 4 groups of interest are hanging around in the marketplace?"
Is this answering the question, "When the party walks from A to B in Qaybar, what interesting encounter is offered to them along the way?"
Is this answering the question, "Someone has just waylaid the party. While they are rolling for initiative figure out who and what?"
Is this answering the question, "I need an opposing front for tonight's session, who should it be?"

All of the above! :)

I remember Kamikaze Midget ( [MENTION=2067]I'm A Banana[/MENTION] now? ) - at least I believe it was him - positing that random encounters have 3 reasons to be in a game, and the DM should be really clear about which reason he or he was drawing on when designing a random encounter:
  1. Resource attrition to make travel meaningful/interesting.
  2. An actual challenge for the PCs.
  3. Evoking the feel of a particular setting.

My thinking about random encounters is a lot more synergistic and "unpure." Of course I want to do #2 and #3. And maybe resource attrition isn't my goal in this case, but I do want the second part of #1 - for exploration of Qaybar to be meaningful and interesting.

So, when would a DM use these random encounter tables? Possibly in any of these situations...
  • When the DM wants to add spice to the PCs’ exploration of Qaybar.
  • When the DM needs a quick idea, these encounters can support his or her imagination/memory.
  • When the PCs move between different districts (or Material / Border Ethereal) and/or enter Qaybar for the first time in a while.
  • When the PCs spend significant time on the streets, to evoke the feel of a dynamic city.
 

Celebrim

Legend
When I do urban encounters, I mostly do #3 during the day (and hope it makes travel interesting) and then create a feeling of danger at night with a second table that is more - but not completely - geared to "things that might want to just attack you on sight". I mean it is a city, life and death combat are not a daily thing or no one would live in it.

During the day, I create conflict by rolling twice on the table and then trying to imagine a conflict between the two entries that the players come across in normal city life. If one party doesn't particularly inspire me at the moment, I'll have that party flee and deposit the "problem" that I am inspired by in the PC's lap. I also like to have the encounters draw the party into the setting.

I think the ideas are about right, as long as it is clear that none of them are necessarily, "You see this; roll for initiative" type encounters. Even Ibn Natn's people - maybe especially Ibn Natn's people - would be very circumspect, probably the point of officious politeness and cowardice, if challenged abroad in daylight as opposed to in the Charnel Quarter.

Some other very rough bare bones ideas, not really fleshed out:

1. A servant of the House of Mash’al is frantically seeking a rare delicacy that an important guest insists on having.
2. A group of salamanders in the employ of Hadiya Rafidah Kassis are drunkenly imbibing high proof alcohol and explosively spouting blue flames in the street.
3. A mixed group of servants of Ibn-Natn have reason to conduct business with a shop keeper that can only be done in the daylight.
4. A group of street urchins in the employ of the Coiled Madam look for easy pickings in the purses of strangers of the city.
5. A tout offers for a small fee to show the PC the wonders of the city? He hints that he knows where various pleasures both licit and illicit can be found.
6. A party of human lepers goes down one side of the street begging. Everyone presses against the far wall to give them right away. Some toss coins. Others toss rotten vegetables. Both are taken.
7. A beggar attempts to gain the PC’s sympathy with a story of woes and misfortunes. Ninety percent of the time, these are professional beggars. The other 10% of the time, it’s someone in real desperate need of aid.
8. A busker juggles flaming torches, while an intelligent monkey performs tricks and attempts to convince passers by to put money in a hat.
9. A busker snake charmer’s small traveling circus performs various stunts with supposedly vicious snakes - who actually of course can talk, and are in on the act.
10. A group of magicians plays literally enchanting music on a street corner, hypnotizing the weak willed that come near. They entertain the rest of the crowd by making ridiculous suggestions to the enraptured bystanders.
11. A professional eavesdropper snoops around for interesting conversations to memorize. He tries to sell his merchandise to the PCs.
12. Barakaka the ooze mephit is running a message or an errand for his master Al Marbi. He takes every opportunity to harass comely females with profane and vulgar observations, and delights in provoking return barbs, retorts and even blows and missiles as a sort of bizarre game.
13. An apprentice of Gamali Al Zuhur is seeking some rare item for his master’s greenhouses.
14. A group of the Chimney Sweeps trails the PC’s on the roof tops attempting to learn what errand they are on.
15. A great wagon pulled by mastadons, dire oxen or the like, tries to pull a tottering load of building supplies (logs, bricks, stone blocks, ect.) down a street seemingly far too narrow for the transport, causing much consternation.
16. A group of Fire bug toughs try to intimidate everyone in the street in to giving way to them and treating them as some sort of nobility.
17. Several ogres and some of Beyg Tuma’s tax collectors are on the trail of a tax cheat, when they PC’s come to their attention. They seek proof that the PC’s paid a ‘sword tax’ upon entering the city, and if not what a fine paid for every bladed weapon the PC’s possess.
18. A group of the Tuma children are out on an educational excursion in the city, such as to witness the parade of a particular Guild, or to see the once a century blooming of a rare plant in the hanging gardens - accompanied by a nurse, several servants and a dozen burly body guards.
19. Two aged philosophers go down the street at a surprisingly quick pace, paying little attention to their surroundings, so caught up are they in a heated argument over the merits of two political parties.
20. A group of young scholars are playing at being dangerous rakes and rascals as they escape from their studies.
21. A starving poet tries to convince the PC’s to commission him to write poems about their good deeds and wander about the city reciting them.
22. Two elders of the city are on their way to a tea house for afternoon refreshment, and are discussing with each other the details of a particularly vexing case heard in the court of elders this morning.
23. A group of the Chimeras are people gazing on the street corner, looking for opportunity to stir up some trouble. They entertain themselves by having a buddy, an intelligent lion, pretend to be a wild animal that has escaped their control, snarling and chuffing and panicking the naive.
24. The Liberators are trying to spirit a slave out of the city, closely pursued by the city watch. There is a 20% chance in the excitement the slave has now decided that they don’t really want to be rescued, and is trying to convince his would be rescuers to let him go before he gets into trouble.
25. A group of stone giants is dragging a sledge of stone to a construction site. They are all convinced they are having a living dream, and nothing that happens here under the sky is real.
26. The glassblowers of the city are engaged in festivities, and are having a parade. They throw beads and small coins at onlookers, and parade examples of their art, the sacred relics of their guild (in stained glass reliquaries), various glass idols of their deities, ancestors, and greater spirits, about the city. They are all dressed in elaborate finery, including coats sewn with hundreds of tiny mirrors and pieces of glass. Their apprentices sing sacred hymns of the Guild, while the Journeyman make merry with bottles of wine and caper in the streets, or show off their skill by juggling various glass objects (such as balls and empty bottles of wine). Various citizens come out to give or receive blessings, and street urchins, bored talking animals, and buskers follow behind in their wake.
27. A young man with a restless character has just been discharged from the honorable waifs of the palace. He goes forth to seek adventures and his fortune. The PC’s seem like a likely place to begin, and he tries to convince one to take him on as a squire or apprentice.

Looking over the list of major NPCs, it impresses upon me how thin it is. There's only about 1/4 the NPC's I feel you'd need to truly understand a city of this size, and I have given no examples of ordinary street persons - no shopkeepers, buskers, beggars, touts, urchins, unruly apprentices, waifs, drunks, madmen, drovers, teamsters, porters, caravan mercenaries, tourists, scholars and the like that would be teeming on the streets. Hopefully, I'm right in my impression you are pretty good at making that sort of thing up yourself.

Unfortunately, I need to do about 100 dungeon rooms over the next week or so for my own game - at least in outline - or I'm going to be in trouble.
 

Quickleaf

Legend
Great stuff as always :) And good point about the importance of day/night encounter differences, especially for a city.

Unfortunately, I need to do about 100 dungeon rooms over the next week or so for my own game - at least in outline - or I'm going to be in trouble.

Want a hand? I'm happy to return the favor with some dungeon room designs.
 

TBeholder

Explorer
While I'm a huge Planescape fan [MENTION=41606]TBeholder[/MENTION] (just google "enworld 5e planescape conversion" and you'll see my thread pop up – I used to have everything handily linked in my sig, but database crash deleted that)....I happen to agree with [MENTION=4937]Celebrim[/MENTION] that differentiating Qaybar, City of the Jann, from Sigil, City of Doors is the better move.
I'm not sure it's "differentiating" when the starting points are so far away. It's closer to "two sea ports in vastly different lands, but both have to deal with salt water, ships and seafaring community (which have its customs and habits), and as such must have some ways of dealing with these things".
the planar factions wouldn't feel Al-Qadim-y. They wouldn't feel apropos of an Arabian Adventure or Sword-and-Sandals or whatever you want to call the motif.
Isn't "Sword-and-Sandals" Mediterranean?
Anyway, that's the whole point of my "adaptation" idea. Locals and semi-residents, if exposed to something via wider planewalking community, can use the parts they like and drop parts for which they have no use, much like the Cagers and everyone else - according to their own needs and tastes, mostly different from what one can see in "hub of the Outer Planes". Also, it filters through several layers of separation: the Cagers - planewalkers of the Outer Planes - planewalkers of the Inner Planes - the wandering Jann and visitors - locals of the Jann city.
Where the (perhaps simply named) Transcendence, Neutrality, Equality, and Elemental Partisan parties succeed is that they feel more at home in the Al-Qadim setting because they make sense for the Jann of Qaybar.
Those are political ("What should we do about X?") rather than philosophical ("How do we see things in general?") divisions. Different basic type, if necessarily interacting - much like e.g. religions and planar philosophies are not quite independent, but with exception of very clear-cut cases, not directly linked, since different followers of the same deities may emphasize different parts of the same teachings or individually fit in better or worse with a given crowd, so there can be those who stick with one faction, another, don't really care about this or are too busy with the divine business.
I think the simpler answer is that there are no references to Sigil or Planeswalkers in 'City of Delights'. Qaybar, as an Al-Qadim themed city, ought to seem more like a variation of Huzuz, with perhaps even more Jann and Genies, than it ought to be a variation of Sigil.
I doubt it should be a variation of Huzuz more than City of Brass is a variation of Huzuz.
And there's too little known about Dayya/Ubar beyond the basics.
But even if so, there's difference in philosophies to consider. Huzuz has lots and lots of temples defining this side, and also countering the external influences.
Generally the genies are much less enthusiastic about the whole divine business, if not to the point of complete neglect. What priests they have would be less active in general and much less proactive. In Ubar they have what, 3 mosques catering to the most obvious ways the Jann are inclined to run? That's in the Land of Fate.
But the Jann mostly left to themselves, in constant, but limited contact with particular Prime lands and dealing with the Elemental Planes all the time? They can be expected to adopt different approach, and pick different influences. So it's mostly up to the travellers and what they drag back home.
 

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