What Do You Feel is Necessary or Recommended?

[MwaO]

This could have been a route to mixing two defenders and other similar things that are cludgy shrug its just conjecture.

Most Defender|Defender hybrids work really easily together - Fighter, Wardens, and Battleminds all trigger off any mark and Swordmages and Paladins generate a lot of marks.

 

[Garthanos]

Most Defender|Defender hybrids work really easily together - Fighter, Wardens, and Battleminds all trigger off any mark and Swordmages and Paladins generate a lot of marks.

Hmm I had the impression there was a disconnect

For instance
I am trying to picture a Fighter Swordmage, but green flame blade starts feeling like a striker benefit... useful but it doesnt mark anyone.

The hybrid swordmage aegis marks 1 per combat total, I am just not seeing them working so well

 

[MwaO]

For instance
I am trying to picture a Fighter Swordmage, but green flame blade starts feeling like a striker benefit... useful but it doesnt mark anyone.

The hybrid swordmage aegis marks 1 per combat total, I am just not seeing them working so well

Fighter|Swordmage is reasonably straightforward - 16 pre-racial Str/Int, spend hybrid talent on either Swordmage Warding or Fighter Armor. Use Aegis on one opponent - when that opponent dies or you choose to override it by using a Fighter power on them, you can use it again. I particularly like Ensnarement for hybrid Swordmages when you're a Fighter - they violate your mark, you suck them into close burst positioning for powers such as Come And Get It or your friends' blast/burst powers.

And I wouldn't take Greenflame Blade - I'd take Booming Blade, even if Con is bad or Swordburst.

 

[MwaO]

I think to be also very clear about most hybrid Defender|Defender - they can almost always do multi-marking right from 1st level every round of every combat if they choose. Which is a really powerhouse Defender option unavailable to most single class Defenders.

So as an example, a Swordmage|Fighter can move up to two opponents in burst 1, aegis one opponent, then use a Fighter power on another. Now they're both marked and if the Aegis opponent violates the mark, the Fighter can use either the Aegis option or Combat Challenge on it. Same thing works for say Divine Challenge/Sanction and Fighter too - a Divine Sanction'd target violates the mark by attacking someone else and they can potentially take both Divine Sanction and Combat Challenge damage.

 

[Garthanos]

Fighter|Swordmage is reasonably straightforward - 16 pre-racial Str/Int, spend hybrid talent on either Swordmage Warding or Fighter Armor.

That much was obvious.

Use Aegis on one opponent - when that opponent dies or you choose to override it by using a Fighter power on them, you can use it again.

So any mark works with the Aegis no matter the cause of the mark? in this case the Fighter element then is producing almost all of the Marking ability with the Swordmages next to none... a Dual Strike (fist and blade) if you must (sacrificing armor for the round of course) seems it might be useful.

I particularly like Ensnarement for hybrid Swordmages when you're a Fighter - they violate your mark, you suck them into close burst positioning for powers such as Come And Get It or your friends' blast/burst powers.

I can definitely see ensnarement ... its basically more come and get in general.

And I wouldn't take Greenflame Blade - I'd take Booming Blade, even if Con is bad or Swordburst.

Swordburst is also on my list in general

 

[MwaO]

So any mark works with the Aegis no matter the cause of the mark? in this case the Fighter element then is producing almost all of the Marking ability with the Swordmages next to none... a Dual Strike (fist and blade) if you must (sacrificing armor for the round of course) seems it might be useful.

No, each mark does what it says it does. If it doesn't say anything other than target is marked, it is just a generic one.

So Dual Strike ends up marking with 2 generic marks. Where say Aegis+Tide of Iron can push targets into position where they're burst 1 for your friends.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Could not agree with this assessment more! So long as each player in the group (including the GM) is roughly on the same page with regard to optimization, the game is perfectly viable for the whole range of builds, from hapless PCs whose players don't understand the basic math of the system to high-level PCs whose players have optimized every build choice for combat (or important single skill) effectiveness.

And, as you note, it takes real work and a combination of multiple build components to reach very high optimization (or a complete disregard for character mechanical effectiveness to be unplayable).

Right. The worst I can say about 4e is that there's a certain 'overhead' in kind of grooming your character concept and making it work really well and mesh well with the rest of the party. One of the things 5e does do is streamline that. It makes specific concepts into 2-3 choices instead of 6-8 choices, which is kind of good. Of course sometimes you lose some flexibility, but they actually did a good job of not simplifying TOO much. The one thing that suffered was tactical depth though.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Most Defender|Defender hybrids work really easily together - Fighter, Wardens, and Battleminds all trigger off any mark and Swordmages and Paladins generate a lot of marks.

Swordmages in particular mix well with a LOT of stuff. In fact it is probably the premiere class for Hybridizing. You lose effectively almost none of the basic effectiveness of the swordmage class, and graft on a whole other set of better options for many situations. It also provides reasons to use the Ensnaring Aegis, which is otherwise pretty worthless. Many strikers are also quite happy to be paired up with a swordmage. It should work quite well with an Avenger for instance.

 

[MwaO]

t also provides reasons to use the Ensnaring Aegis, which is otherwise pretty worthless.

I think it depends on party. In the right party and playing tactically, I think it is the best one where Assault is the worst.

i.e. Swordmage who takes mostly immediate action powers and alternates between Swordburst & Booming Blade, where they kite their soldier mark, then Booming Blade someone else. Tends to end up grouping up targets so the party blasters can hit multiple targets repeatedly.

Which is part of the reason Assault is actually the worst - because to use it means to leave your Booming Blade target alone and spread out focus fire.

 

[Garthanos]

I think it depends on party. In the right party and playing tactically, I think it is the best one where Assault is the worst.

I would have said assault is the worst too but it seems tempting to some folk hence why I kind of wanted more of a true striker build swordmage.