What do you not like about M&M?

[Ranger REG]

No, I want to turn them into super feats, since that's essentially how they work - either you have them or you don't. But have them cost more than 2 points.

Perhaps, but then one can argue that some speedsters are faster than others. Case in point: The Flash vs. Superman.

 

[threshel]

A criticism, some ranting, and a compliment or two...

I don't think there's anything seriously wrong with the ruleset, but I think that showing the breakdown of power construction would help a lot when determining how powers interact, react, etc. For instance, Alternate Form: Energy includes Ghost Touch on the Energy Blast. This is necessary for the power to affect things in the real world. What it also means is that anyone in AF: Energy form will affect other Incorporeal characters as well. Now, I know this because it's been discussed online and Kenson has said that AF: Energy indeed includes Ghost Touch. The interaction part is my conclusion, but that's my job, I'm the GM. Most of the powers listed are easy to break down and deduce interaction, but an explicit listing for each of the sample power builds would help immensely.

A word about "front-loaded" powers and game balance: cost isn't the only balancing factor. I have yet to have a real problem with Invisibility or Incorporeality. First off, it's completely in genre to have villians with abilities that either diametrically oppose the heroes, or specifically target weaknessess/overcome abilities. Second, I think that traditional gameplay has inflated the value of powers like Invisibility, and the always tricky "At what point do you not make things touching you invisible?" The arguement goes, "If I make my clothes invisible, why not the flour that guy just dumped on me?" The simple answer is, "Well, all the flour touching you is, yes, invisible too, but that just means you make a man-shaped hole in the cloud of flour dust now in the room."
The same is true for rain, dust kicked up by a well-placed Energy Blast ("I use a hero point to gain See Invisibility as a power stunt of my EB"), or a fight in an active sawmill. Whether by environment or a well used power, small particulate matter is a traditional and in genre counter for invisibility. Also, Invisible characters leave tracks and make noise.
Mechanically, Invisibility is countered by a 2 different superfeats, Blindsight and See Invisibility. Also, low level Invisibility is useless for a melee character, as anyone within 5 feet gets a Spot check v. DC 10+(Ranks in Invisibility) to notice him. A ranged character can benefit from 1 rank, true, but after the first shot, everybody knows where she is, and once they get within 5 feet, she's toast. To get around it, she'll have to buy the Subtle extra for her attack power, effectively negating the cheap cost. Even so, how does Telescopic Senses factor in to the "within 5' " determination? If Telescoping Senses eliminates range penalties, effectively giving you unmodified Spot checks at distance, then wouldn't a character with Telescopic Vision get that Spot check v. Invisibility at a distance?
Does this mean in my games I nerf Invisibility? No. Invisible characters generally get the drop on their opponents, can recon relatively safely, and still get the benefit of concealment even when Spotted. But with all the ways to be detected, I don't think that's worth more than 1pp/rank. Also, it's advisable to let your players know in advance that in a supers game, being Invisible isn't as effective as it is against orcs and goblins.
Incorporeality is a problem, but only if you let characters be generically intangible, which is against the intent of the system. A supers character has a defining concept, one that determines a lot about his interaction with the game world. Made of light? OK then, we automatically know that you're affected by darkness and can't pass through opaque objects. Made of fire? Then water's your bane. Constantly vibrating so that your molecules "sift" through solid objects? You're going to have a problem passing through materials with a base hardness higher than your ranks. Are you a ghost? Then mystical powers and substances will give you cause for concern.

One thing that I love about the MnM book as written is the constant emphasis on GM interaction throughout the book. GM's ignore this at their own peril.

While benchmarks or point caps would make it easier, I like the fact that they were omitted. This allows each GM and group to determine their own level of play. For instance, at what PL would you set a Batman style game? In MnM, it doesn't matter that nearly everyone has a different answer, because you can do it at whatever PL makes sense to you and your game group.

I like MnM mostly because it just gives me the tools I need and then gets out of my way.

J

 

[The_Universe]

The bookkeeping is definitely my chief complaint - as an earlier poster said, it's almost impossible to come up with a decent character with a copy of the character sheet, the book, and a pencil - you almost have to have another sort of game aid to make the thing feasible.

Sitting down with a group of 4 characters and saying, "Make a character at PL X" means that everyone's going to leave frustrated, and little or no playing will have been done.

Apart from that, I really agree with Threshel, above - M&M gives you the tools to run your games, and then gets out of your way. That's what I've appreciated most about D20 as a whole, and something that M&M in particular has in spades.

 

[threshel]

The bookkeeping is definitely my chief complaint - as an earlier poster said, it's almost impossible to come up with a decent character with a copy of the character sheet, the book, and a pencil - you almost have to have another sort of game aid to make the thing feasible.

Sitting down with a group of 4 characters and saying, "Make a character at PL X" means that everyone's going to leave frustrated, and little or no playing will have been done.

A few others have mentioned this, too. While things like Simpson's Mutants and Masterminds Excel Character Builder certainly help, what I suspect you're really seeing is just a learning curve. Yeah, MnM's curve is steep, but once you get past it, character building is no more difficult in MnM than in most other systems. I think the expectation created by the familiarity of the d20 system can lead to frustration at first. With most d20, if you know character creation in D&D, you've got it licked anywhere else: d20 Modern, CoC d20, whatever.
Also, the amount of GM interaction necessary (and I am not complaining about this, in fact I think it's one of the strengths of the game) usually means I work with my players as much as possible before the first actual session and with our first campaign we sat aside the first session for character creation. Yes, even at the end of that session we were all dissapointed that we didn't have time to play with our new characters in this new game we were so excited about, but after the second session, nobody cared. It's a temporary issue, and one that has meant little to the long-term running of a campaign or the enjoyment of the game.
From a GM's perspective, at first it's a little daunting, and I relied heavily on the archetypes and supporting cast writeups presented in the book as the basis for some of my first villains and NPC's, but now new characters are easy, whether generated on the excel sheet or not.
A huge, huge help in getting over this curve was the Atomic Think Tank on MutantsandMasterminds.com. There are some very helpful people there, including an official rules clarification forum run by the author, who has also replied to this thread once or twice. MnM has, without a doubt, the absolute best support I've ever seen for a game from the developer.


J
PS I'm not trying to invalidate anyone's critisms or opinions, just noting how it went for me.

 

[Ranger REG]

Sitting down with a group of 4 characters and saying, "Make a character at PL X" means that everyone's going to leave frustrated, and little or no playing will have been done.

Have your group had any prior experience with freeform character creation? With D&D and similar game, it's a matter of choosing a race, a class (which will offer you abilities at certain levels), a set of skills & feats, and you're 90% done.

But games like MnM, Champion, etc., though flexible, it doesn't give you a roadmap. Which is why such a game offer templates, examples of starting character archetypes. They're like classes but you can make small customizations.

Other than that, you should ask them what primary superpower they want for their superhero PC. At least once they have a concept or a theme to begin with, the rest will fall into place.

 

[The_Universe]

Have your group had any prior experience with freeform character creation? With D&D and similar game, it's a matter of choosing a race, a class (which will offer you abilities at certain levels), a set of skills & feats, and you're 90% done.

But games like MnM, Champion, etc., though flexible, it doesn't give you a roadmap. Which is why such a game offer templates, examples of starting character archetypes. They're like classes but you can make small customizations.

Other than that, you should ask them what primary superpower they want for their superhero PC. At least once they have a concept or a theme to begin with, the rest will fall into place.

I started with the D6 Star Wars RPG, which is totally free form - but it has comparably fewer elements to choose than M&M. In Star Wars, you chose attributes, skills, and equipment - done! Attributes and skills came from seperate pools, so there was less that had to be prioritized by the player. At least at first.

It's the combination of free form and the MUCH larger number of elements to choose from (all coming from the same point pool) that's the "problem" with M&M, not just being free form in and of itself.

I know how to do it, and even this criticism is really just a strength (lots of choices) of the system in disguise. It's just hard to write up characters, especially at first.

Even with a well-chosen direction for every character, you're still much better off using Simpsons Character Builder than you would be trying to do all the bookkeeping yourself, while other free form systems can adequately create a readable character with nothing but a piece of scratch paper.

I *love* M&M - But I still wish there were a more ordered/easier to learn way (a better roadmap?) for putting together characters.

 

[greymarch]

I enjoy the system mechanics, although I find them somewhat simplistic. My biggest issue with M&M is the campaign setting. Specifically, I am referring to Freedom City.

Inflammatory comments removed. - Henry

 

[takyris]

While I won't be addressing the particulars of the politics, since I'd like to see this thread not get immediately locked (and if you are trying to get it locked, well played), I will note that M&M in no way requires Freedom City to play, and that the rules of the game don't actually relate to politics of any kind. This would be a great complaint about M&M if the only people who could fire Energy Blasts were hippies, while libertarians got the Disturbing weakness without getting the point break for it. As it stands, this is like complaining about D&D by saying that you don't like dinosaur-riding hobbits or golem PCs, since those are in Eberron -- a separate book that you can choose to buy if you don't want to make a homebrew. Like Freedom City.

 

[Ranger REG]

I *love* M&M - But I still wish there were a more ordered/easier to learn way (a better roadmap?) for putting together characters.

Based on your post (snipped for brevity), it sounds like you want them to separate the universal point pool into different areas: one set of points for choosing ability scores, one set for choosing skills, etc.

Honestly, I don't know if that'll work effectively in a superhero-type games, unless you don't mind the ... for lack of a better word ... restrictions. After all, there are some superheroes that do not have extraordinary abilities but extraordinary skills (Batman), and vice versa (Superman).

 

[Ranger REG]

While I won't be addressing the particulars of the politics, since I'd like to see this thread not get immediately locked (and if you are trying to get it locked, well played), I will note that M&M in no way requires Freedom City to play, and that the rules of the game don't actually relate to politics of any kind.

AFAIK, you don't need Freedom City, if you already have a setting in mind for your superhero party. And there is always San Angelo (a M&M Superlink product from Gold Rush Games).

As for politics and government, while we can't discuss it here, you can explore it in your own modern city. I mean, with all that streetpoles being torn up to be used as oversized bats, or walls being vandalized by superheroes' or supervillains' bodies crashing into them, it would amazed me that the city government can clean things up while have enough money to meet other budgetary concerns. Heck, The Incredibles is one example of government intervention. I'll stop here.