What does a DM owe his players?/ Are the rules written in stone?

[Mark]

What does a DM owe his players?

I don't think it is good to get into a mindset that presupposes a debt.

Are the rules written in stone?

Nope.

 

[FireLance]

Making guarrantees that those sorts of things won't happen, IMO, is against the spirit of the game.

Against the spirit of whose game? The spirit of your game could be very different from the spirit of mine.

 

[DethStryke]

A question to the OP. Is this the same game mentioned in another thread in which the game is starting off at 10th level and some players are using existing characters with their equipment (I believe the Paladin character had a Holy Avenger) and the new characters created at 10th aren't allowed to pick their items?

Yes, this is exactly the same. I was one of the "new" characters in this scenario. The Holy Avenger, in my opinion, was not as blatant as the Helm that summoned a Pegasus for 8 hours. That was in addition to his Special Mount Warhorse. And a ring of Vampiric Regeneration. (now, to be fair, it was a convert from 1st edition Pally, which if you recall is limited to only 8 magical items total, so it wasn't endless...)

When he said it was understood, it was to the people bringing in converted, pre-made characters that were completely equipped. I was told that we were all coming in without any equipment and the same 2000gp each to buy ONLY mundane equipment. It struck me as extra work for the DM that the players could take care of before coming to the table, but I figured to each their own. I generally don’t presume to tell the DM how to run their show unless I see something very wrong and/or they ask.

Then on the first session the Pally flew in on her Pegasus, and I spoke up.

Now, to be fair, this really was a situation that he assumed understanding, but never formally *said* any of that which he assumed. That explanation continues below:

If that is the case, what you as the DM owe the players is fairness. Having existing 10th level characters with their original equipment starting a game along side newly created 10th level characters who are not allowed to select their magic items based on wealth quidelines is, to put it frankly, blatantly unfair to the new players.

Either everyone starts off the game with magic items based on a value you have set or noone does. To do otherwise is to disadvantage the new characters in relation to the existing characters.

I would imagine that the players that are complaining are the one's with the new character, right? And rightly they should. Unless you could assure me as a player that I would be getting a whole lot of loving shortly into the start of the campaign, I would be offended that I could not pick my magic items and would be under equipped to the wealth guidelines and the party's paladin gets to keep his shiny Holy Avenger and god knows whatever items he has.

That is a short version of what I communicated. I am not a need-phat-lewts kind of guy. I primarily play in low-magic and low equipment games. I was one of the player's in Old One's Faded Glory campaign (which I miss immensely, but I digress), and that's about as low magic as it gets without removing it completely. My primary concern is that anything that proves even a small challenge to the two already equipped (well equipped, as you can see) was going to mop the floor with the rest of us. I like to address and remove potentially game-breaking problems before they become that kind of a problem.

That being said, I sent a long email enumerating the details above, with multiple suggestions on how to address them in a fair and equitable manner. He then explained how we were going to gain this equipment and we had a very agreeable exchange on the pros and cons of each of my points. He consented to my points where they were well made, and discussed in a very rational and well-put manner on the ones he disagreed with. However, it wasn't until the second session that this even happened, so there was no agreement or understanding on my part until then. After that point, I had no problem because his intent, that he may have had all along, was now understood. I was in-the-know… finally.

Further, if the game is the same one in the other thread, you do yourself a disservice to start this thread and not come clean on all the details when you ask your question. The responses you have gotten so far may be considerably different had the fact that existing characters keep their original equipment and new characters get to fight with whatever scraps you as DM deem to give them at campaign start.

This is the very reason I am responding, as I am literally the "other side" of the situation. In retrospect, I think that the only disservice Keifer113 did was to not explain these things right out from the gate, even if he thought we knew them. I learned the hard way, and I guess he has now as well, that anything you leave to interpretation or think there is unspoken understanding, it comes back to wreak havoc on the group as a whole. You save yourself many headaches and a lot of time by laying out the basic expectations and understandings before you even reach the first “real” session.

He has generally made up for the party power dichotomy, and I think not ridiculously so. Being heavily geared or low power geared is irrelevant to me; it's simply not a very valid indicator of balance or not. The key is whether the challenges we face use a certain percentage of our available resources. If we are super-crazy geared, but the challenges we face require us to use all of those resources, that indicates more balance than what any one character has.

The new problem is that all of the “gear up” looting includes the two already equipped players, who take items from the available treasure pile, and his NPC wizard charges three times the gold cost for identify for each item (300gp each). We’re forced to barter powerful equipment to allow identifies for the rest of the pile. This creates some friction among the players, and it could have all been avoided had he done an all or nothing approach from the start. *shrug* I’ve seen worse, but I’d be lying if I said I was thrilled about it. Ironically, the two pre-fab characters are low-money characters (Monk and Pally), so they brought over boss gear but no coinage to speak of.

In my opinion this is annoying and could have been avoided from the start, but not a game breaker, per se.

 

[Odhanan]

*reads Black Moria and DethStryke*

I hate threads that don't explain the WHOLE situation before asking for opinions.

 

[Hitokiri]

I think the only mistake here was not laying out the situation in black and white for all the players. I know if I had a DM tell me "no magic equipment for you" and I watched another PC ride in on a pegasus with her holy avenger, I'd be a tad upset and may not return for another session after what looks like blatant favoritism towards specific players. I want to play a hero, not flunkey number 2.

Next time, sit down with your players before hand and explain EXACTLY how you plan to run things. Don't assume they "know" the type of game they are getting into. If you have house rules, ;ay them out. The last thing players want is to get surprises about the game they are playing. Now, same scenario as above but I've been told that a pre-existing character is coming in and I will be getting some gear to bring me up to a reasonable equivalent to their power level over the beginning sessions, and I go from thinking I'm some sort of redshirt to becoming an up and coming adventurer who is joining a pre-existing group (possibly someone who inspired me, or that I've heard in tales). The lack of gear moves from being an issue to being a roleplaying opportunity to start to develope my PC around.

In summation ,the idea wasn't bad, but your implementation of it left something to be disered. Ah well, next time you'll know how to avoid these mistakes.

 

[DethStryke]

*reads Black Moria and DethStryke*

I hate threads that don't explain the WHOLE situation before asking for opinions.

As do I, clearly.

 

[Keifer113]

Yes, this is exactly the same. I was one of the "new" characters in this scenario. The Holy Avenger, in my opinion, was not as blatant as the Helm that summoned a Pegasus for 8 hours. That was in addition to his Special Mount Warhorse. And a ring of Vampiric Regeneration. (now, to be fair, it was a convert from 1st edition Pally, which if you recall is limited to only 8 magical items total, so it wasn't endless...)

When he said it was understood, it was to the people bringing in converted, pre-made characters that were completely equipped. I was told that we were all coming in without any equipment and the same 2000gp each to buy ONLY mundane equipment. It struck me as extra work for the DM that the players could take care of before coming to the table, but I figured to each their own. I generally don’t presume to tell the DM how to run their show unless I see something very wrong and/or they ask.

Then on the first session the Pally flew in on her Pegasus, and I spoke up.


The new problem is that all of the “gear up” looting includes the two already equipped players, who take items from the available treasure pile, and his NPC wizard charges three times the gold cost for identify for each item (300gp each). We’re forced to barter powerful equipment to allow identifies for the rest of the pile. This creates some friction among the players, and it could have all been avoided had he done an all or nothing approach from the start. *shrug* I’ve seen worse, but I’d be lying if I said I was thrilled about it. Ironically, the two pre-fab characters are low-money characters (Monk and Pally), so they brought over boss gear but no coinage to speak of.

In my opinion this is annoying and could have been avoided from the start, but not a game breaker, per se.

Actually.......I thought I posted you could bring in an established 10th level character, or a new one if you didn't have one with 2000GP of gear. Oops.

The wizard is only making a 100GP profit off the magic items. Sheesh! You know you will be finding a knight's corpse with some magic items you can sell to make some dough. <eg>

I too am annoyed that the paladin and monk are grabbing magic items. I would stand up and make a polite and diplomatic case that perhaps they should follow their LG alignments and be generous to the other party members for now, until such a time as it feels warranted to change said agreement.

You guys have also forgotten about participation points, which I give out to use to bid for magic items. I am thinking of doubling the weaker characters PP until things are equalized.
I had totally forgotten she had that helm! Lol.

 

[Felix]

The wizard is only making a 100GP profit off the magic items.

As a wizard NPC in a town hired to identify magic items, I can understand charging for profit. I can also understand a party wizard charging 100gp for the pearl consumed in casting Identify, except those items the wizard is keeping for himself.

But for an NPC who travels with the party to charge 300gp per Identify is asking for the fighter to step aside and let the charging Orc Barbarian get some hits in. Shoot, a PC wizard would deserve a similar fate.

I would stand up and make a polite and diplomatic case that perhaps they should follow their LG alignments and be generous to the other party members for now, until such a time as it feels warranted to change said agreement.

From their point of view, they deserve a part of that treasure as much as the rest of the party does. Their old items were hard-fought for, and the current party did nothing to help them aquire them; why should they not get a fair share of the rewards whatever new quests they find themselves in?

Which is to say, their LG alignment does not mean that simply because they are magic wealthy, they must give the fruits of their labors to others.

Only from a metagame point of view do they need to share the wealth; that is a can of worms you created for yourself.

You guys have also forgotten about participation points, which I give out to use to bid for magic items. I am thinking of doubling the weaker characters PP until things are equalized.

This is ironic.

A well equipped character is more powerful and thus better able to defeat the challenges put before him. Thus it is more likely that a well equipped character can participate in more of the challenge-overcoming than a poorly equipped character. The reward for this increased participation is even less bidding power when it comes to divvying the loot. Hmmm.

That of course assumes Participation Points are awarded not for role-playing and things other than combat.

But in that case, if I were well equipped and my role-playing gets snubbed, I might think that isn't too terribly equitable.

Meh. Easier to ret-con and get those problems the hell out of the game. At least, that's what I'd do at this point.

 

[Keifer113]

As a wizard NPC in a town hired to identify magic items, I can understand charging for profit. I can also understand a party wizard charging 100gp for the pearl consumed in casting Identify, except those items the wizard is keeping for himself.

But for an NPC who travels with the party to charge 300gp per Identify is asking for the fighter to step aside and let the charging Orc Barbarian get some hits in. Shoot, a PC wizard would deserve a similar fate.


From their point of view, they deserve a part of that treasure as much as the rest of the party does. Their old items were hard-fought for, and the current party did nothing to help them aquire them; why should they not get a fair share of the rewards whatever new quests they find themselves in?

Which is to say, their LG alignment does not mean that simply because they are magic wealthy, they must give the fruits of their labors to others.

Only from a metagame point of view do they need to share the wealth; that is a can of worms you created for yourself.


This is ironic.

A well equipped character is more powerful and thus better able to defeat the challenges put before him. Thus it is more likely that a well equipped character can participate in more of the challenge-overcoming than a poorly equipped character. The reward for this increased participation is even less bidding power when it comes to divvying the loot. Hmmm.

That of course assumes Participation Points are awarded not for role-playing and things other than combat.

But in that case, if I were well equipped and my role-playing gets snubbed, I might think that isn't too terribly equitable.

Meh. Easier to ret-con and get those problems the hell out of the game. At least, that's what I'd do at this point.

A PC wizard yes. This wizard is a mercenary hired by the caravan master. It is called capitalism. And he doesn't need that fighter to stand in front of him, he can handle himself. ( and just in case anyone is thinking I would show favoritism to an NPC, twice now he has gotten himself hit for about half his hit points in damage. If it came down to it, he could die).

We must agree to disagree about the LG alignment. To me, a LG player believes in sharing the wealth. Participation points are for something entirely different then what you are thinking.

Ironically, the wizard is named Felix.

 

[Felix]

This wizard is a mercenary hired by the caravan master. It is called capitalism. And he doesn't need that fighter to stand in front of him, he can handle himself.

I'm down with charging for services, and down with capitalism in-game. But if the wizard thinks his services are worth a few hundred extra gp, then I'd make it clear to him in game that my services are worth serious gp too. If an agreeable arrangement couldn't be made twixt him, me and the caravan master (who I imagine would love to have some 10th level guys protecting him) concerning exorbanant pearl component costs, I'd offer my services elsewhere. Truly, I'd try to make it reasonable, but 300 gp for a 1st level spell ain't.

Shoot, a scroll of Identify only costs 125!

To me, a LG player believes in sharing the wealth.

If that's the case, they should share what wealth they already have.

And you'd better confer with your players to make sure your LG is what they think LG is. If you've had communication problems over starting wealth, then alignment, a much stickier subject, is ripe for problems.

Participation points are for something entirely different then what you are thinking.

I thought it likely so. What are they exactly?

Ironically, the wizard is named Felix.

As befits folks whose primary stat is INT.