What does a DM owe his players?/ Are the rules written in stone?

[Jefe Bergenstein]

That doesn't mean I am stingy with items, just that I like magic to be special.

Except it does mean you are stingy. And flat out neutering many classes. Fighters need magical weapons/armor in order to give a meaningful contribution to an adventure. otherwise they're nothing more than a big meatsack liability.

If you're running a low magic item world, with standard classes and no alteration to spellcasters, you're doing something wrong.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

I too am annoyed that the paladin and monk are grabbing magic items. I would stand up and make a polite and diplomatic case that perhaps they should follow their LG alignments and be generous to the other party members for now, until such a time as it feels warranted to change said agreement.

Why wouldnt they be taking items? They work for them too. You're the one at fault, for setting up a crappy situation by screwing over new people while letting them start with scads of gear.

 

[Agent Oracle]

*reads Black Moria and DethStryke*

I hate threads that don't explain the WHOLE situation before asking for opinions.

Yep. This is that same game that I posted about asking for advice on how to leave. Keifer113 might have explained himsself here, but when I left that party, I was very much in the dark about what was going on. All I knew was that when we finally did get treasure, it was... how to put this, distressingly more powerful than players of our level should have (my guess was that the Defender I recieved was to be on-par with the holy avenger the paladin had, but I digress)

Anyhow, if Keifer113 had let us all know this ahead of time, well, I still would have been sore about having to survive so long on sub-par gear, and leaving my character's build at the mercy of the DM, but i might not have left... well, not as soon as I did.

The simple fact of D&D is that, as long as you use fantastic creatures, as long as clerics can spontaneously heal people, as long as wizards can chuck Fireballs, monks that can run UP walls, druids that can change into wild beasts, gnomes that can cast minor magical effects once per day reguardless fo their intelligence or class, the dead walking, inanimate objects walking, changelings, tieflings, asamar, centaurs, dragons demons devils (the whole "D" chapter of the original monster manual)... long story short, magic just isn't that awe-inspiring in the D&D world.

For magic to leave a player slack-jawed, you'd have to remove it to a great distance from the world.

Forbid clerics, wizards, sorcerers, druids, bards, monks (just for their extrordinary abilities) and paladins (That leaves, uh, Rogues, Barbarians and fighters?), oh, and only the human race. And then genuinely run the world where they fight against NPC-generated enemies with identical restrictions

Makes each bar fight more deadly, makes laying siege more tactical and less metaphysical. But to really scare them, as they approach the end... someone "Out of the Blue" produces a magical effect agtainst which they are unprepared. it could be a revealing that the minor NPC that's been helping them all this time is an Elven sorcerer, pretending to be a rogue... or it could be that their fellow prisoner in a tower is a werewolf. it's enough to make them fall apart. THAT'S how you run a low-to-no-magic setting.

But, you know, facing creatures that have damage reductions x/+1, or that regenendlessly unles they take fire / acid damage, or chimera, dragons, demons, devils... the entire D section of the DMG basicly... well, doing that, there's not enough suspention of disbelief that such horiffic creatures could exist in a fantasy world and still leave any kind of civilization.

Conan the barbarian is a great example of Low Magic Until It Counts Setting. The Grey Mouser is also a great example.

Anyhow, I've gone off on a rant. I'll just end up here. Keifer113, i'm sure you're a great DM in your own right. you had some fantastic set pieces, and lots of miniatures, and plenty of options for every eventuality. But when it came right down to it, your concept of D&D fun was too different from my concept of D&D fun.

 

[Keifer113]

Warning: economic pedantry ahead. Proceed with caution.

Using a fairly simplistic definition of "profit", revenue minus cost, the wizard actually makes a profit of 200 gp per casting of identify.

If you don't think too much about the underlying economics and assume that the standard price guidelines in the PH correctly reflect the prevailing market conditions, the "market price" of an identify from a 10th-level wizard is 200 gp. Most 10th-level wizards make a "profit" of 100 gp. The additional 100 gp that the wizard charges above the standard "market price" is what is generally referred to as "gouging".

Price Gouging...just what is that? Its an assumption that goods you wish to buy are overpriced for the sake of making a profit....but isn't that what capitalism is about? I offer goods or services for a price, and you are free to search around for the best value.

I used to run a medical clinic, and we had a device called a flexible laryngoscope, that was an easy to use microscope that could look down throats. If we didn't have that, we would have to bring a patient back, put them under sedation, and use a rigid laryngoscope, costing the insurance companies thousands of dollars.

Instead we charged 250 for the flexible. But we had several patients complain that their insurance companies were being charged for a 3 minute office visit. These patients, all of them had Medicare and supplemental insurance...they were not paying a dime. But they complained we were overcharging them. So in the interest of customer service, we killed the charges.

Were we gouging? Nope. The laryngoscope enabled us to provide better service to our patients. It required upkeep, training to use, and like all medical procedures, entailed a small risk which meant the doctors needed malpractice insurance.

So our fee was reasonable, and included in the charge was the expertise of the doctor.

So when Fel the mage charges 300 gp to identify a magic item, he's spending 100 GP for the pearl, more for the scroll making, some more for the roof over his head so he can provide the service, his "secretary/servant" so he'll have time to make the scroll and not have to do his laundry, and be able to put some gold away for rainy days and retirement. And have some pocket money. Why shouldn't he get rich? Is there some law or rule written that its wrong to make money?

In addition he takes a risk if the item is cursed or explodes or summons Orcus. He also would, through his expertise, tell the players anything significant about the items....this sword was carried by LoneHawk, the mighty knight who rode through 12 rings of fire to save his wife, the Lady Serlena.

So in the end, 300 GP sounds reasonable to me, and isn't gouging at all.

 

[Ralts Bloodthorne]

If it wasn't for the disparity between the Paladin and the Monk and the rest of the party, I'd say: "Suck it up and drive on." So the following has nothing to do really with the arguement between the OP and his player...

See, one thing I've noticed, is when told to write up PC's, a lot of players think they are ENTITLED to the GP value in magic items.

Well, news flash there, Skippy.

You aren't.

I've ran into this sense of entitlement a few times, usually with new players.

See, I'm the GM, I and I alone determine what magic items are in my world, and who has them. Not WotC, not ENWorld, not RPGNow, and certianly NOT the players. They get to buy mundane gear, not worry about the prices, and wait for me to say Yeah or Nay on it.

Then they hand me thier PC sheet, and I add in magic items.

Why do I do this?

Simple. Control. This controls the power level. This starts everyone off somewhat even.

But it still gets me, the sense of entitlement that some players have.

Just because you are a 10th level anything does NOT mean you get even a +1 dagger!

It means that the average D&D PC will have enough items to have that much in wealth.

Of course, I will admit, I lay it down at the beginning.

"Fourth level PC's, Core Books ONLY, all PrC's cleared through me, pick mundane gear only."

That's usually how it goes, just the level differing.

 

[FireLance]

So in the end, 300 GP sounds reasonable to me, and isn't gouging at all.

You don't need to work so hard to justify yourself. All you have to do is say that the standard price for a 10th-level wizard to cast identify in your world is higher than the standard price in the PH.

In campaigns that follow the PH standard, 10th-level wizards charge 200 gp to cast identify. In those campaigns, a wizard that charges 300 gp is gouging, just like an armorer who charges 300 gp for a suit of splint mail (recommended retail price: 200 gp) is gouging. Wizards in other campaigns probably face the same issues as Fel the wizard, but seem to be able to get by while charging less.

However, Fel the wizard seems pretty silly to waste a scroll on identify when he can just prepare it as one of his daily spells.

 

[Hussar]

See, I'm the GM, I and I alone determine what magic items are in my world, and who has them. Not WotC, not ENWorld, not RPGNow, and certianly NOT the players. They get to buy mundane gear, not worry about the prices, and wait for me to say Yeah or Nay on it.

And that's perfectly fine. OTOH, there are many DM's out there who trust their players more to not feel the need to have such an iron grip. And, there are a number of players out there who will abuse that trust. I have zero problems with handing the players the DMG when creating higher level characters.

It's their character after all. If they feel like they need item X and not Y, who am I to disagree. The wealth tables in the DMG are not particularly high. You would never see a 10th level character with a holy avenger for example. It's simply WAY out of his price range.

I've been playing the World's Largest Dungeon for almost a year now. Just had session 46 today actually. In that time, I've permanently whacked 11 PC's. Each time, they came back with wealth equivalent to their level. They handed me a character sheet, ran any non-SRD items past me and away we went.

The game is not overpowered, I've had zero problems with the players running amok. If anything, the PC's are getting their asses handed to them more often than not. And that's with the Goliath fighter and the Orc barbarian both with strengths in the mid twenties. They are min/maxed to their hearts content. I don't care.

In the end, it doesn't matter how much you min/max, fiddle with items, whatever. The dice will favour the DM every time in a long enough span. Whacked the Goliath fighter today as a matter of fact. We'll see if he gets raised or not as to whether we have a permanent death number 12 on the list.

I've realized one very important thing in running the WLD. The idea that balance is precarious in 3e is completely removed from my experience. The idea that the players can mickey mouse the system to the point where I can't challenge them is simply not true IME. I run the WLD as written with few to no changes. I don't up the difficulties and I still whack PC's every 4 sessions. And that's with 5 PC's, all at the appropriate level.

Now YMMV of course. And I understand that. Maybe my lot just isn't as good at min/maxing as yours. That could certainly be true. But, I'm sorry, I find it MUCH easier just to trust my players and my own ability to challenge whatever they can throw at me than to try to micromanage ever element in the game.

 

[GrumpyOldMan]

For magic to leave a player slack-jawed, you'd have to remove it to a great distance from the world.

Forbid clerics, wizards, sorcerers, druids, bards, monks (just for their extrordinary abilities) and paladins (That leaves, uh, Rogues, Barbarians and fighters?), oh, and only the human race. And then genuinely run the world where they fight against NPC-generated enemies with identical restrictions

Makes each bar fight more deadly, makes laying siege more tactical and less metaphysical. But to really scare them, as they approach the end... someone "Out of the Blue" produces a magical effect agtainst which they are unprepared. it could be a revealing that the minor NPC that's been helping them all this time is an Elven sorcerer, pretending to be a rogue... or it could be that their fellow prisoner in a tower is a werewolf. it's enough to make them fall apart. THAT'S how you run a low-to-no-magic setting.

Now THAT sounds like my kinda game!!

 

[Agback]

I was not limiting the players in their magic, just delaying a session or two in giving things out.

Imagine that i had just quoted all that Bene Gesserit stuff about beginnings out of Dune. You can probably remember it better than I can.

Beginnings are important. Beginnings are when you set teh hook. Always start out showing the players what they want to play this game for. Screw them later, make them want to fight for what you showed them in the beginning.

Don't screw them first and show them the carrot afterwards. You might not get to afterwards. And if you do, the carrot will seem like oil put on the squeaky hinge, not a thing to have back.

I suggest at this stage that you apologise for your mistake, cancel your campaign, and, ideally, hand the GMing off to someone else for a while. The campaign you have now will survive only on a ventilator. Because in the position you are in you're damned if you do (give out the expected magical items) and damned if you don't.

 

[Felix]

Simple. Control. This controls the power level.

Not an accusation: DMs interested interested in a great deal of control at the beginning of character creation are often interested in maintaining that level of control during play. I like a bit of freedom, myself. And I don't think a +1 sword or a +2 armor are really going to break or imbalance anything.

This starts everyone off somewhat even.

Meh. So does saying, "Everyone at 4th level gets 5,400 gp worth of equipment, with no single magic item worth more than 2,700 gp". I mean, what is that really? One +1 weapon, a +1 armor, +1 shield, and some potions. It's not going to break anything and you throw players (whose character you are about to try to kill) a friggin bone.

he's spending 100 GP for the pearl, more for the scroll making, some more for the roof over his head so he can provide the service, his "secretary/servant" so he'll have time to make the scroll and not have to do his laundry, and be able to put some gold away for rainy days and retirement. And have some pocket money.

100 gp pearl? Valid.

Scroll making? Why is a wizard making a scroll to Identify when he won't have to spend XP to just memorize the spell? I mentioned the 125 gp price of a scroll to note that it would be much cheaper for the PCs to figure a way to cast it on their own.

Fixed cost of roof over head. Isn't he getting provided this by the caravan owner he's working for? Isn't he getting paid for being there? What cost does he have? Or is he part of the caravan administration?

Secretary/Servant. A valet costs 2 sp/ day to hire in the DMG. A 6 gp price increase would pay for one month's service. Or do the NPCs price gouge the wizard as well?

Retirement. Very forward thinking. He can have his 100gp extra cost to retire on as long as he forfeits his share of the loot we reap from adventuring. Or do you starve the PCs there as well as price gouging them?

Pocket money. 10 gp is pocket money. 100 gp is absurd. He's already making 100 gp easy when he casts Identify from a spell slot; isn't this where his pocket money comes from?