What does Videogamey mean to you?

[Paradox]

I could understand the "accusation", but I could never figure out why it was a bad thing. (It's bad someone is trying to be argumentative and start flame wars.)

A few decades ago, there was a kids TV sketch show called "You Can't Do That On Television." One episode had three or so sketches about D&D. One I always remember is when the host is playing an Atari game, pauses and looks at the camera and delcared, "You know, I could get into Dungeons & Dragons, but they don't make a video game version of it."

Obviously, since then they HAVE made D&D video games. Some very popular ones too. Mention "Baldur's Gate" and many will think of the computer games.

Even today, video games are pretty popular. So, if video games are good, and D&D is good, how can using some elements of one be bad if it's in the other? How many of those using "videogamey" as an insult are even old enough to remember D&D players using cartoons for inspiration. (Pirates of Dark Water, Thundaar the Barbarian... Heck, I recall one humorous/serious attempts at adapting the Smurfs.)

Does that make D&D 2e too "cartoony"?

There are a lot of elements that are share by many different media. I was playing Torchlight and noticed similar items that are in World of Warcraft, and have been used in D&D since the beginning.

Elemental weapons - Who hasn't had or tried to get a flaming sword? Once one plays with fire, one wants to have an ice weapon. Along with those are poison items and so on.

Elemental dungeons are also common. Temple of Elemental Evil anyone? Whab about every Legend of Zelda game?

Swords. Shields. Armor. Horses. Rustic towns. Busy city streets. Someone in need of some help on a quest. Old man aproaches you at in inn. Draongs. A secret guild. A mountainous area. Dwarves living in said mountain, but build the halls/ceilings impossibly (and needlessly) high. Swampy areas. Desert themes. Evil wizards locked in stone towers plotting to take over the world. And tons and tons more.

It's all there. It's always been there. It will always be there.

So, where exactly is the "videogamey" insult aimed at? Is it players who act like 12 year olds who just discovered the F word? Do people believe that another gaming group is going to come over and gank the party?

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Well I thought Danny said dont feed the trolls.

Well...not quite.

Those are good words to post by, but my point was more along the lines of most people don't use the term in its most "Troll-y" form- you know, with the built in personal attacks that, without a doubt, popped up from time to time.

Those reading the term will ask for clarification- and if they've seen the "troll-y" use before- its to ascertain whether or not the person is trolling, first and foremost, and secondarily to have a debate about the person's non-trolling use of the term.

Those who troll with it that way will quickly be revealed, because they want to dig those spurs in.

Those who don't will be faced with (at least some) people who are itching to counterstrike a troll, and even when faced with someone who is just expressing an emotional/perceptive opinion, will hound that person with logic and debate (although, in all fairness, with less vigor and determination than if confronted with an actual troll).

Fruitlessly.

I could understand the "accusation", but I could never figure out why it was a bad thing. (It's bad someone is trying to be argumentative and start flame wars.)
<snip>
So, where exactly is the "videogamey" insult aimed at? Is it players who act like 12 year olds who just discovered the F word? Do people believe that another gaming group is going to come over and gank the party?

The insult came from some who equate and use the term to describe their perceived "dumbing down" of the game, and who often describe 4Ed lovers as "morons" or "idiots"

See this post here:

No, it also makes me angry for showing up and calling my game names and by proxy me for playing them. As soon as I see the word "videogamey" it starts to raise my blood pressure because of the number of times I've seen the word mean "game for stupid people" or "dumbed down game" or "game meant for powergamers and not roleplayers". All of which are insulting to me personally.

And Majoru is absolutely right to be ticked off by that.

The problem with that response to ALL uses of the word is that the insulting use is definitely a minority use.

My take on broad terms is to assume the more charitable meanings until and unless someone gives me reason to think otherwise.

 

[Budalic]

I still think that most people who use term videogamey actually want to use term gamist. However, the term vidogamey has gained negative connotation, so it used in demeaning way agianst the games (or editions) poster doesn't like.

IMO, the 4E is "tabletopy" - gamist and optimized for easier tabletop playing. Most of the rules wouldn't make sense in videogames (say, in real time videogame, all actions are immediate actions).

 

[Jdvn1]

The point of using a single word is to save myself the work of posting the same definition over and over again.

That's kind of pointless if people have to ask you what you mean all the time. People don't understand 'videogamey'. It's a vague term to use. So what if playing the game makes you think of video games? There isn't an intrinsic part of the game that would make you feel that way. If 4E reminded me of flowers, could I say it's flowery? Would people understand what I meant if I told them that 4E is flowery? Of course not, that's why one shouldn't describe it that way.

Moreover, you seem to ignore that 'videogamey' has a negative connotation. Note Umbran's example, previously, of a racial epithet. To take the point further, one should attempt to avoid insulting people by not using racial epithets, or loaded terminology.

Second, as I've pointed out before, definition beyond that point is useless. Specificity in no way further the potential for useful discussion because all you can do with that is attack someone's claim that something is videogamey...and that means you're attacking a person's personal perceptions of how the game made him feel. How in the heck is that useful and productive?

That's not true. Specificity allows someone to understand what you're talking about, when you use a term that isn't familiar.

Consider that yet another viable definition of videogamey, and you'll use 7 fewer words.

More than viable, it's better. It doesn't have the same negative connotation.

Consider this: "I don't like Nutella because it is hazelnutty." You have the same kind of comparison. You know what 2 things are being compared. You don't know why the person dislikes hazelnuts...but does it really matter? Are you going to be able to construct a logical argument why he should like hazelnuts, or why the hazelnuttiness of Nutella shouldn't be held against it?

On the other hand, someone who dislikes 4E because it's videogamey doesn't necessarily dislike video games. Further, someone who doesn't like the hazelnuttiness of Nutella doesn't necessarily have anything personal against hazelnuts. 'Hazelnutty' isn't a loaded term. 'Videogamey' is.

Besides which, Nutella is made with hazelnuts. That's clearly true. No one would ask, "... Why would you say Nutella's hazelnutty?" 4E's videogaminess is questionable to the point that someone could reasonably ask why you thought 4E was videogamey. Hazelnutty isn't a vague term. Videogamey is.

 

[LostSoul]

I still think that most people who use term videogamey actually want to use term gamist. However, the term vidogamey has gained negative connotation, so it used in demeaning way agianst the games (or editions) poster doesn't like.

IMO, the 4E is "tabletopy" - gamist and optimized for easier tabletop playing. Most of the rules wouldn't make sense in videogames (say, in real time videogame, all actions are immediate actions).

There's no real consensus on the term "gamist." That could be another 15-page thread.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

That's kind of pointless if people have to ask you what you mean all the time. People don't understand 'videogamey'. It's a vague term to use.

People don't have to ask what it means- they know its a referent to video games. Greater specificity just starts pointless arguments.

If you leave it alone, you'll save a lot of time and effort.

How many definitions have been posted in this thread? How many people who feel 4Ed is videogamey have been convinced otherwise?

Why the need to discuss that aspect at all?

So what if playing the game makes you think of video games? There isn't an intrinsic part of the game that would make you feel that way.

There IS an intrinsic part of the game that makes me think of video games- the healing surges, in my case- instantly had me thinking of the little health bars on the screens of various combat games...and nothing you say can make me feel otherwise. i know this because people on this board have been trying to do so since the game came out.

There ARE intrinsic parts of the game that makes my buddies think of video games- the marking, the aggro and so many other things they found in the first half-hour of reading the books reminded them of things they love in the MMORPGs they play (and program)...and they wanted no part of it. They still say that if they wanted to play an MMORPG, they'd skip game night and do so rather than playing 4Ed.

Moreover, you seem to ignore that 'videogamey' has a negative connotation. Note Umbran's example, previously, of a racial epithet. To take the point further, one should attempt to avoid insulting people by not using racial epithets, or loaded terminology.

I'm not ignoring it, I'm minimizing it.

Sure, it has a negative connotation- one single connotation among many, and a connotation that, near as I can tell, is not the definition of the vast majority of those who use the term.

Consider, the terms "boy" and "chief" both have negative connotations as well- both can be used as racial epithets. Whether the specific use is or not is usually determined by overall context.

That doesn't mean we don't use those words, however, even when directed at members of the races to whom those words would be uses as epithets. My younger cousin is still a "boy." A tribal leader is still a "Chief."

I contend that persons whose first reaction that they're being insulted by the term are being as uncharitable and paranoid as my aunt who thinks that all whites are racists, even if they don't give her a reason to think that way.

I, while recognizing that there are white racists (and racists of all races, of course), will wait to judge whether someone is racist by their other words & actions. If I don't see any racist words or actions, I assume the best- that they are not racists.

So my advice would be to assume that the person using the term "videogamey" is NOT being a troll, is NOT hurling an insult, until and unless they prove otherwise, rather than assuming the worst case scenario.

That's not true. Specificity allows someone to understand what you're talking about, when you use a term that isn't familiar.

I'd counter that everyone on these boards is familiar with the term videogamey and at least 5 ways it could be used.

Getting specific isn't going to aid in any useful debate because you'll either 1) give a troll the opportunity to spew or 2) start trying to convince someone that their emotional observations are not valid.

And you're not going to get anywhere doing that.

If you claim that you're NOT trying to convince them their perception that 4Ed is "videogamey" is incorrect or somehow invalid, then what the heck do you need to know a precise definition of what that term means to them?

More than viable, it's better. It doesn't have the same negative connotation.

Except it isn't in accord with my use of the word. My use of the word is all about how its a mechanic that reminds me of arcade combat games like Tekken and MK. I'm not saying that the mechanic isn't good or well thought out. I'm not saying that it doesn't belong in P&P RPGs. I'm not judging the quality of the mechanic at all. I'm saying that the mechanic evokes in me a distaste that 4Ed is mimicking electronic games I enjoy, and that isn't why I'm playing D&D.

But instead of all that, I'll stick to saying "videogamey", thank you very much.

Hazelnutty isn't a vague term. Videogamey is.

Videogamey is broad, not vague.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

there's no real consensus on the term "gamist." that could be another 15-page thread.

qft.

 

[Budalic]

There IS an intrinsic part of the game that makes me think of video games- the healing surges, in my case- instantly had me thinking of the little health bars on the screens of various combat games...and nothing you say can make me feel otherwise. i know this because people on this board have been trying to do so since the game came out.

There ARE intrinsic parts of the game that makes my buddies think of video games- the marking, the aggro and so many other things they found in the first half-hour of reading the books reminded them of things they love in the MMORPGs they play (and program)...and they wanted no part of it. They still say that if they wanted to play an MMORPG, they'd skip game night and do so rather than playing 4Ed.'m not ignoring it, I'm minimizing it.

Videogamey is also subjective. I began playing videogames before rpgs. When I first saw D&D (3E) few years ago, I tought:

HPs! Like in videogames!
Why isn't AC called defense, like in Diablo?
Dexterity doesn't improve your chance to hit with sword?

Even now I'm still convinced that only difference between cRPGs and ttRPGs is greater freedom and out-of-box thinking that ttRPGs offer.
Of course, cRPGs also have advantages like, say, better presentation (i.e. Mass Effect 2 has stunning graphics; great voice acting - Martin Sheen ftw - those are things you can't get in ttRPGs.).

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Videogamey is also subjective.

The perception that something is videogamey is ENTIRELY subjective. That's why you can't argue its nature objectively.

I began playing videogames before rpgs. When I first saw D&D (3E) few years ago, I tought:

HPs! Like in videogames!
Why isn't AC called defense, like in Diablo?
Dexterity doesn't improve your chance to hit with sword?

Even now I'm still convinced that only difference between cRPGs and ttRPGs is greater freedom and out-of-box thinking that ttRPGs offer.

And has any 3Ed fan convinced you that 3Ed isn't videogamey? It doesn't seem so.

 

[Paradox]

The insult came from some who equate and use the term to describe their perceived "dumbing down" of the game, and who often describe 4Ed lovers as "morons" or "idiots"

Which I don't understand because every edition got that accusation. 2e was dumbed down from 1e, and 3e was dumbed down from 2e, so you've already got morons and idots playing.

I think that perception comes from the fact that the books have to explain what a roleplaying game is, since the books are targeted to new players as well as old. Consider, you already know what a roleplaying game is, so those pages explaining it might seem like it's "talking down" to you and are useless. But such simplistic explinations have ALWAYS been in the game. Go ahead and check any edition, and you'll get a "simple" explination of what a roleplaying game is.

And you DO want the rules to explain the rules. People aren't happy (rightly so) that 4e throws out 1(w) without explaining what it is before the first useage of the term.

Sure, experienced players know what AC is, what HPs are, what the six ability scores are and so on. They already have a grasp of the basics, so seeing them explained again may seem like a waste of space. But it's not.