D&D 4E What Doesn't 4E Do Well?

[Blackbrrd]

Outside of maybe the basic, stand-and-shoot archer ranger (which I find boring as Hades) there isn't a great "starter" character in 4E for a total new person to gaming.

I can't agree with you here. A first level character with 2 at-will powers, an encounter, a daily power and a class feature is something I could explain to somebody in maybe 15 minutes.

Examples:
Battle Cleric
Charging Barbarian
Fighter
etc...

As noted by a player who started his Dnd 3.5 gaming with a level 7 wizard and created a 4e sorcerer: "This was easy".

If you think the Ranger in 4e is boring, what did you think of the Fighter, Ranger, Paladin, etc in 3.5 then? At level 1 they have even less options than a Ranger.

 

[fuzzlewump]

I introduced someone completely new to gaming with a level 5 wizard, and she understood within minutes. Disagree with the "no starter characters" argument, anecdotally.

 

[ForceUser]

Multi-Classing: 4E has reintroduced Dual-Classing but it doesn't do Multi-Classing well at all.

Bad Ass PC: A single PC isn't especially impressive; there's a good chance they'll lose to a single standard monster. A party is a terrifying murder machine that chews up enemies and spits out giblets but that's a different point.

I am pretty disappointed with the lack of multiclassing. I know that it often caused issues in previous editions, and I know that in lieu of multiclassing 4E simply has way more classes and paragon paths. But I still miss it.

I just quoted the second part because I want to toss it in my sig.

I have two specific criticisms of 4E:

1. The way magic items are hard baked into the system. They are absolutely necessary and integral to a PC's power in a way that has never before been done in D&D, and I hate that because I've never been a DM who enjoys kitting out the PCs' paper dolls. I'm much more about fewer, cooler magic items.

2. The grid. While I like the grid and tactical combat, the powers and abilities of PCs are incredibly over-focused on the combat grid in 4E. It feels way more like a board game that previous editions, and I dislike that. Even though I enjoy the combat game, something intangible about D&D has been lost for me.

 

[ValhallaGH]

I am pretty disappointed with the lack of multiclassing. ... But I still miss it.

Me too.

I just quoted the second part because I want to toss it in my sig.

I am most flattered. I hope it serves you well.

1. The way magic items are hard baked into the system.

Personally, I find it easier to toss out magic items in this edition than in any previous edition. I just up all PC numbers by +1 per 5 levels (round up) and I'm done. It was much more trouble to figure out how to get no-item PCs to keep up in 3.0. I know because there were entire alternate player handbooks to allow just that to happen, instead of a simple rule that's covered in a sidebar of the DMG.

 

[Traveon Wyvernspur]

2. The grid. While I like the grid and tactical combat, the powers and abilities of PCs are incredibly over-focused on the combat grid in 4E. It feels way more like a board game that previous editions, and I dislike that. Even though I enjoy the combat game, something intangible about D&D has been lost for me.

I have to agree on this one, it does feel more like a board game than something that used to be more imaginative. I remember when I started playing it was about role playing it out and less restrictive. Now it's like battleship. I remember using a piece of scratch paper to do a quick map of the area for my players and then it was question and answer of "can i do this?" and the DM's discretion on whether something could or could not be done in the combat. That's my only real dislike of 4e is how reliant it is on a grid and minis.

 

[Eric888]

My list:

1) Combat in 3rd dimension. How tall is a given zone? Can a spirit companion or stinking cloud be summoned in the air? Can I teleport monsters into the air and make them fall? Why is a dragon ever on the ground? How is that scareb swarm granting cover to that Hill Giant? All of the powers, monsters, and mechanics in 4e assume a 2-dimensional playing area, making 3rd-dimensional combat confusing and capricous.

2) Too many choices. So my fighter just hit level 11, great! All I have to do is read 6 seperate abilities and features for each of 40 different PPs and 40 more PPs for every class I might MC into for the PP. I also get to read hundreds of items for what I might want and like 10 powers almost every level to pick between. And it is only getting worse. Brevity is the soul of wit.

3) Errata. Too much of it. At first it was only important stuff that needed to be addressed but now the PDF is a novel that keeps getting bigger every month. I mean really? Issueing errata to Aspect of Orcus to change his damage from 1d10+10 to 2d10+5? That 0.5 damage was important?

4) Controllers. What is a controller? What do they do for the party? Is it AoE? No because even fighters and rangers have lots of AoE. Do they mess up monsters? Not as well as dirsuptive strike or confounding arrows does. In past editions a wizard was needed because he had area attacks and could do cool and interesting things that other classes couldn't. Now every class can incapacitate enemies with status effects, and has tons of close or area attacks, making the wizard's-role (redimagined as the controller) unnecessary.

 

[Kinneus]

4) Controllers. What is a controller? What do they do for the party? Is it AoE? No because even fighters and rangers have lots of AoE. Do they mess up monsters? Not as well as dirsuptive strike or confounding arrows does. In past editions a wizard was needed because he had area attacks and could do cool and interesting things that other classes couldn't. Now every class can incapacitate enemies with status effects, and has tons of close or area attacks, making the wizard's-role (redimagined as the controller) unnecessary.

I have to disagree with this one. A melee druid isn't a great controller, and they kind of goofed with the PH1 wizard, but they're starting to figure out the controller's role. It does AoE and status effects. Other classes can do this to an extent, of course, but the controller is the mighty grandmaster of it. A wizard's crowd control is like a cleric's healing. Sure, you can Second Wind, but ain't nobody going to hold a candle to the cleric.

Also, as a DM, I find it's often the controller that foils my sinister plots. This actually happened in one of my games: "A team of gnoll archers atop a high battlement open fire on you! In front of them is a ten-foot ditch filled with ravenous hyenas! How will you ever reach them in time?" The invoker wins initiative. "Great," he says, "I cast this spell, and drag the entire team of archers off the wall, letting them fall 30' into the pit of hyenas." And he did. Basically insta-killed what I was expecting to be a very difficult encounter.

That's controllers for you. They appear to do nothing for a long time, and then they pull out the perfect power at the perfect moment to utterly wreck your face. The standard pattern seems to be: crappy at-wills, game-changing dailies.

I'll admit, they're not exactly necessary to a successful party the way a leader is. But they certainly help round things out.

 

[Blackbrrd]

My list:
2) Too many choices. So my fighter just hit level 11, great! All I have to do is read 6 seperate abilities and features for each of 40 different PPs and 40 more PPs for every class I might MC into for the PP. I also get to read hundreds of items for what I might want and like 10 powers almost every level to pick between. And it is only getting worse. Brevity is the soul of wit.

My thoughts as well.

I haven't played above level 10 yet, and until then it is relatively manageable if you use the character builder. When you want a paragon path it really takes of with the available number of choices. Remember you can multiclass to 5-10 other classes and get access to their PP's!

Magic items... Just don't get me started. Without the character builder you are a 100% lost. There is just too much. Even with the character builder it is annoying. You can't do keyword search either, so you are gonna be stuck reading through hundreds of items.

Too bad the magic items like Iron armbands of Power etc are so good because now every character shines like a christmas tree. Exactly the opposite of what they said at the start of 4e.

Luckily character building and finding magic items is something done out of play time and by the players, not the DM. This helps a lot, but you have to let go of the control as a DM.

 

[Saeviomagy]

I was thinking more along the lines that 4E reduced the generic benefits of the ability scores. Constitution no longer grants a bonus to hit points on a per hit die basis, so there is no significant benefit if you decide to raise Constitution instead of your primary or secondary ability score.

Every point of con gives you 1/4 * surge quantity hitpoints more per day. Every other point of con gives you 25% of your base hitpoints per day as well. There really is nothing wrong with putting points into con if survivability is your goal.

The problem is that once you know how to play most roleplaying games, being an uber-survivable brick is not usually a particularly useful tactic. In fact, in 4e, with the defender abilities, it's more useful that in most other games.

Intelligence no longer grants additional skill points, so raising Intelligence instead of your primary or secondary ability score only benefits Intelligence-based skills. Similarly, Dexterity no longer adds to AC/Reflex exclusively, and Wisdom doesn't add to Will exclusively.

Wisdom is fine because it fuels perception and insight, which are both incredibly good skills. Intelligence seems a bit lacking.

 

[Blackbrrd]

That's controllers for you. They appear to do nothing for a long time, and then they pull out the perfect power at the perfect moment to utterly wreck your face. The standard pattern seems to be: crappy at-wills, game-changing dailies.

You are talking about the Wizard, they have crap at-will, ok encounter and game changing dailies.

I'll admit, they're not exactly necessary to a successful party the way a leader is. But they certainly help round things out.

I have an Invoker with the Covenant of Wrath - he behaves like a supercharged Ranger targeting at least two enemies the whole fight, doing damage and conditions by the bucket load.

Personally I think they hit it balance-wise with the Invoker and missed with the Wizard. - Although you can build some descent wizards now, after Arcane power came out. It just took them some time to fix it.