What ever happened to Role Playing?

[Stormfalcon]

There are ways to intrinsically support roleplaying and D&D does not take a very aggressive approach as regards to some of these. On the one hand, as compared to 1e and 2e there is extended support for non-combat related activity in the expanded skills and feats system. Non-combat related magic hasn't really improved all that much though -- just a little bit.

On the other hand, from a actions-rewards perspective, D&D really hasn't improved at all for roleplay support at the system level. What kind of behavior is D&D designed to encourage? You are rewarded for killing creatures and avoiding traps with XP and gold. You spend XP and gold to get better at killing creatures and avoiding traps. At the system design level, you are still basically left on your own as far as most activity beyond this is concerned. The story award XP variant is a great example of this, as essentially it just tells you to wing it -- i.e. make the stuff up because you're on your own.

For a counterexample of how to more closely tie roleplaying behavior into the rules, Riddle of Steel has Spiritual Attributes. These count as both something similar to action dice as well as experience points and are tied to roleplaying aspects of the character. Thus, you might have a Spiritual Attribute for serving your king faithfully. When acting relative to this, whether it be defending a client in the courts, standing up to an angry mob with rhetoric, stealing a rival's secret plans, trying to gain the king's personal affections, or meeting your foes on the field of battle, you can act with greater ability and you become more powerful as a result. Thus, it clearly rewards and encourages different types of behavior than D&D does and creates a different game dynamic in terms of the relationship between the DM, the players, and the game world. This is not to say the game is better than D&D, but just that it has a different focus.

I don't think it's completely fair to say that roleplaying is always fully supported by all RPGs the same and that it's entirely dependent on having good players. The system can also encourage this type of play more actively than D&D does. Nevertheless, sometimes I see this repeated almost like a religious mantra. It's not the system, it's the players. It's not the system, it's the players. I agree that it's mostly the players, but the system does have a significant effect and roleplaying does not always have to be relegated to the realm of intangibles.

None of this is a criticism of D&D nor am I saying that you can't have great and immersive roleplay with D&D. D&D is a great game, but different games focus on different things and encourage different behavior.

The problem with trying to put some sort of rewards-for-roleplaying system into a game's rules is that what may work for one group may not work for another, and may be a massive problem for yet a third group. For example, we recently had a thread here about how a DM was having problems with a player in regards to XP rewards for roleplaying. In short, the player didn't get an XP reward since he didn't do much by way of roleplaying, and started causing trouble for the group by throwing around accusations of favoritism. It's an extreme example, to be sure, but it does happen and it's an example of groups having to handle things differently.

IIRC, in the same thread, another DM pointed out that they did not believe in XP rewards for roleplaying at all, believing that roleplaying was an expected behavior and shouldn't need encouragement. Obviously, hardwiring a rewards-for-roleplaying system would not be useful to that group.

Then you have a myriad of groups in-between, some preferring bigger rewards, some preferring smaller ones. Still others may prefer to apply roleplaying bonuses to skill/ability/save checks instead of (or even in addition to) XP rewards. Some even put XP rewards up to player vote rather than let the DM (or rules) arbitrarily decide who gets what.

The point is that a one-size-fits-all approach to encouraging roleplaying isn't really ideal and should indeed be left to the individual groups as a matter of house rules. Only the individual groups can determine what they believe is fair and works well for them. It's not a quick-and-easy solution to be sure, since they do have to work things out for themselves, but it's ultimately the best thing to do.

 

[BSF]

Tsyr,
I understand what you are getting at, but my personal preference is to reward good roleplaying. Basically, anything that generally rewards the fun factor should be encouraged. The other issue is that I don't want the advancement in my game to be completely tied to the combat prowess of the characters.

If I was playing a different game, it might be different.

That being said, I would like to hear your advice on encouraging people to role play a character. How do you draw out a player that might be a bit shy? How do you temper the player that wants all of the spotlight? I believe any techniques that improve role play _could_ be used universally, regardless of reward. Since you advocate pure role play, for it's own sake, you probably have some good ideas.

Stormfalcon,
I agree with you in principle. It is difficult to give ironclad rules that apply universally across every group. Especially when you are talking about the myriad of campaign worlds. What might be good roleplaying for a specific character concept in one kingdom, on one campaign world, might be inapplicable elsewhere.

kenjib,
Thank you for the example. With that in mind, I have a little better grasp on what other people consider RP encouragement. While I am not familiar with Riddle of Steel, but I have seen other, similar enticements. At times, I have deemed them arbitrary rewards that might not fit each character.

But, that really isn't the point is it? At least, not for me. I can see where these systems have provided me another viewpoint on non-combat rewards. It has been integrated into my thinking over time and has probably become something that I don't actively contemplate.

There may be something in all of this. While WotC can't possibly accomodate every conceivable character class/concept/campaign world combo, they could have gone through their iconics and their default game world and provided a few more examples. It wouldn't have been all-encompassing, and somebody would have probably felt it was stifling and inappropriate. However, it might also provide a different perspective pn the game and help other people think outside the combat zone. Hmm.

I might take a look at my own campaign and see if I can put together a player's guide that would help people think outside of combat. It might be interesting and help me solidify some of my thoughts for my campaign. It is worth pondering.

 

[Kichwas]

Actually a varient on the spiritual attributes sounds like it could work quite well for DnD.

Every level pick from 3 to 5 goals and motivations for your character.

A DM could assign CR's to things related to thim as follows:

Successfully bringing one into a game.
Successfully overcoming something related to one.
Developing one of them in new directions.

The exact CR seems highly subjective at this point, but with a little thought it might be possible to design an objective system by perhaps putting it through a flowchart of some kind.

This gives you a carrot approach to roleplay encouragement which roughly meshes in with the current XP system.

I personally find the present skill and feats system already highly encouraging of roleplay. It might perhaps be more so if one codified the idea of getting mods to skill checks based on roleplay - but then you get back into a subjective judgement of the roleplay. And of course, subjective judgements are always prone to cries to favoritism and unfairness.

Sit down at any game where there are XP rewards for roleplay and I will gurantee those rewards go not to the best roleplayers, but to the people who grab the stage the best or are liked most by the DM -factors which simply cause them to be more noticed.

 

[Kichwas]

Now you've got me confused why can't more options be given to both the players and the DM?

Never said anything to that effect.

Or is it that options are 'toys' (in your opinion)? Therefore something with more options has to be about 'toys'?

The problem is you are trying to load a statement that was not loaded.

Options, rules, crunch = toys. The settings I put in their categories are all about the toys they offer. The rules and ways to spice up the game mechanics.

That's not loaded, you don't need to try and read something into it. There's no agenda in it.

 

[kenjib]

Tsyr and Stormfalcon,

I agree that something like Spiritual Attributes would not work well for every group. That's why it's nice to have different games so people can find what works best for them. Like I said, I wasn't trying to claim superiority or even effectiveness, but simply illustrate one way that roleplaying can be tied to game mechanics in a concrete way as regards the risk-reward factor which, ultimately, is the mechanic at the very heart and soul of the game.

Spiritual Attributes actually require a different mode of play than some D&D campaigns, as the game must be player driven and relatively open ended to be successful. Of course, as you point out, this may not work well for all groups but it can be very rewarding when it does.

All I was pointing out is that you can consider, on a very basic level, what types of behavior does the game model reward, and thus encourage. While it's not inescapable, it's simple Pavlov stuff and does have an effect. According to standard D&D rules there is almost no reward that is not related to combat. This extends even to monetary rewards which, if characters were not simply characters in a game, would be used for a lot of other things besides getting new magical weapons, which is however the de facto standard for D&D (this use of wealth is assumed in the CR system, for example).

Another example of reinforcing certain behavior in Riddle of Steel is the brutal combat system. As opposed to D&D, where a standard challenge is supposed to leave you at 75% of your resources but otherwise unscathed, a challenge in Riddle of Steel could easily leave you crippled or dead. This ties back to the spiritual attributes, because these spiritual attributes, when invoked (due to the character following his motivations), give you powerful bonuses that help you survive otherwise deadly combat. The combined effect of these two elements is that, compared to D&D, it's not about how well you fight, but rather what's worth fighting for. You need to chose your battles based around what is important for you or you might end up in an early grave. While the system might have flaws and of course, as I've said, is not for everyone, I think it clearly suggests different types of behavior for players.

I'm not trying to advocate Riddle of Steel, but rather just use it as an example to help clarify the discussion of D&D. The real question is: What behavior does D&D reward, and how does this effect gameplay?

 

[Agamon]

Roleplaying can only really be learned by playing with people that roleplay and you can really only get better with practice. Articles and discussions on it aren't going to help much. Crunchy rules are a lot easier to argue than aspects of roleplaying.

And if you want examples of some RP-heavy d20 gaming, check the links in my sig. I can't say I've played an RPG that didn't have a good share of RP in the last 10 years, and that without having to read anything on it...

 

[Bozidar]

Speaking for myself, role-playing is very much alive. I've gotten help here, and input, on a wide variety of things including many questions about role-playing.

I've had some mechanics questions too, and boards like these lend themselves to such questions, but it doesn't mean that other things aren't discussed here as well. Alls you need do is look..

 

[Iced Tea]

I tell you truthfully when i say im definately not the best roleplayer out there, however its not like im beginning to try. i also find it fun to play Dungeons and Dragons much like a computer game like War Craft or something. I just think that it's sad when other people berate others for not playing to their style.If you wanna roleplay, then do it and stop chastising other for not doing it. and by roleplaying what exactly do you mean. I always wonder what everone's definition is. Is it talking in character, sticking to a characters mood/feelings, et cetera.
-Ben the Wise

 

[Heathen72]

Now I know some of you think youre good roleplayers but I am telling you from my experience I have seen just the opposite.

You think you're too cool for school.
Well, I got news for you Walter Cronkite.... You aren't.

 

[Eridanis]

Let's save the snarky personal comments for face-to-face conversation. Please keep it civil here.