D&D General What ever happened to the Cavalier?

[Andvari]

In Pathfinder 2E, the Cavalier's mount grows in power and the Cavalier can use a reaction to make an attacker strike the Cavalier instead of the mount. Doesn't solve the problem of having a character built for not being in dungeons in a game about being dungeons, though.

 

[Tonguez]

I won't speak on wilderness (because standard land combat is relatively the same regardless of the location)... but I would say the same would need to apply to aerial and underwater play just like it does for Mounted or Sea-based as well. The only difference with those is that the game doesn't tend to include features (like Feats) available to PCs that specifically are meant to make aerial and underwater combat better. If the game DID include an 'Aerial Combat' feat or an 'Underwater Combat' feat like it does a 'Mounted Combat' feat, I would say the same applies-- it is using their Feat system to try and boost a character in a way that does not help the PC except in the most extreme of circumstances.

Let's look at the Mounted Combat feat in 5E:

• You have advantage on melee attack rolls against any unmounted creature that is smaller than your mount.
• You can force an attack targeted at your mount to target you instead.
• If your mount is subjected to an effect that allows it to make Dexterity saving throw to take only half damage, it instead takes no damage if it succeeds on the saving throw, and only half damage if it fails.

So two effects that keep your mount alive, and only one effect that actually helps the PC-- Advantage on a roll. Which is an effect that PCs can already acquire in the game seven ways to Sunday. So what does this character really gain for using one of its Feat slots for it? Very little I would say-- especially when the character will only find themselves on a mount in like a quarter to half of their combats? The feat just is a poor use of resources. And if there was a feat that gave similar effects to Aerial or Underwater combat? The return-on-investment would be even worse.

Now that being said... if there was a defensive feat a PC could take that made them better defensively AND could re-direct damage from a mount to the PC (if and when they found themselves on one)... THEN we might have something that was worth using a feat slot for. Because it would always have worth in some form or fashion and even better worth when on a mount. At that point it could be justified to take them and have them be worthwhile.

Maybe call it “Combat Companion” instead and allow the feat to be used with non-mount companions too, even two PCs could take it and fight as a single unit (And still get advantage on attacks on targets smaller than your companion)

 

[jgsugden]

Why miss the Cavalier? The name? The heavy armored nature? The knighthood? The mounted effectiveness? What is causing the nostaligia/desire to see another one? You can likely address the issues without needing a whole class for it.

In terms of how mounted combatants should work: I like my approach. Most mounts are just NPC monsters that the PCs can befriend, train and mount. They can do typical rider things that can be learned easily.

If you want class abilities that focus on being mounted, I often just give them to you, but keep them from being your strongest abilities. You don't have to pick a subclass to be a great jouster. You just have to give me a reason you are a great jouster. Being able to be effective on a mount has rarely ever threatened the balance of a game - and focing someone to specialize on it just to be good at it makes it a weak option. When a player tells me they want to take a subclass to be good at riding a creature I just tell them to pick another subclass that seems fun and I'll also give them the mounted abilities of the other subclass. It has never gone wrong for me.

 

[Bill Zebub]

If they're going to be fully integral to how a character works, I'm not sure they should be able to die at all.

Agreed. 5e is very much into plot-proof class boons. Witness familiar “spirits”.

If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it might actually be a spirit you can resummon whenever you feel like it.

 

[Zardnaar]

Yeah, zero-to-hero mechanics don't really work well with fixed stat mounts.

Can but not with horse's.

Generally you go from horse to hippogriff or whatever (dire animal), wyvern or whatever and end up on something like a Dragon.

And you kinda need a campaign set mostly out doors.

I wouldn"t spend a huge amount of resources on a mount eg feats, class abilities things like that. Just get the ride skill or equivalent and upgrade the mount to whatever you can get, train, charm or convince to let you ride it.
So you kinda need DM and player buy in.

I had PCs on Clive the Elephant in 2E. Tgey buffed him something chronic (varying, stones kinda etc).

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

In the game, many fantasy NPC races train different fantasy beast to act has mount. I dont get why the humanoids played by the PCs are forced to use real-life horses if those horses are useless to the adventurers.

Drows have their monitor lizards mounts, Duergar have their steeders, Eberron's halflings have their dinosaurs and they all are quite adapted to the dungeonneering needs of their riders. In SKT, you have orcs riding on axebeaks' back!

All of those are better mounts for adventurers than a regular old horse.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Agreed. 5e is very much into plot-proof class boons. Witness familiar “spirits”.

If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it might actually be a spirit you can resummon whenever you feel like it.

Don't even have to do that. Just don't give it an HP stat or saves. Horses don't die in D&D the same way dogs don't die in most movies: it'd ruin the experience for a lot of people, and I doubt most people have the budget to involve something people love more, like Keanu Reeves.

 

[Tonguez]

In the game, many fantasy NPC races train different fantasy beast to act has mount. I dont get why the humanoids played by the PCs are forced to use real-life horses if those horses are useless to the adventurers.

Drows have their monitor lizards mounts, Duergar have their steeders, Eberron's halflings have their dinosaurs and they all are quite adapted to the dungeonneering needs of their riders. In SKT, you have orcs riding on axebeaks' back!

All of those are better mounts for adventurers than a regular old horse.

Some people like Horses? So why not make the Horse cooler - perhaps a Dire Shire Horse which gets both bulk and agility and fearlessness in combat?

 

[Stormonu]

As far as attacking the mount goes, well, I generally just play my bad guys as greedy, and mounts would be part of the treasure they'd get if they defeat the PCs, so they leave 'em alone. (This won't be true for hungry monsters or undead, naturally). Even giants might want them alive so they don't have to carry them, even if they want to eat them. "Save 'em for later, Guggaw! Git dat small guy on top!"

Certainly, you can go that way but I think I'm going to experiment with them being like the character's shield, armor or weapons. I've never once seen someone declare "I'm attacking his shield!", and beyond effects like heat metal or rust monsters (who have a special attack), pretty much the same for armor. Now, you can disarm someone of a weapon, like you could possibly dismount someone from a mount, but its relatively rare it happens. Adjusting the rules the characters focus primarily on the rider, not the mount, I think is a feasible state to get player's minds into.

More difficult will be the "drop them off at the dungeon entrance", but that's kinda like parking a car - the players should generally expect to be coming back out near where they exited in most cases. If not, might consider modifying things so it's possible to bring the mount. As a last resort, I suppose magic could be invoked, but that's really my last resort.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

Some people like Horses? So why not make the Horse cooler - perhaps a Dire Shire Horse which gets both bulk and agility and fearlessness in combat?

I'd be okay with a breed of smaller riding horse that are medium but strong enough to be used as a mount by medium creature.

With all the weird creature mages have created in-setting, its pretty far-fetched they never managed to breed horses to be more adapted to their highly magical environment.

Blink Pony? Unicorn-blooded Mare? Displacer Bay Horse?