What exactly is an "ally"?

[Hypersmurf]

Area: Some spells affect an area. Sometimes a spell description specifies a specially defined area, but usually an area falls into one of the categories defined below.
Creatures: A spell with this kind of area affects creatures directly (like a targeted spell), but it affects all creatures in an area of some kind rather than individual creatures you select. The area might be a spherical burst , a cone-shaped burst, or some other shape.
Many spells affect “living creatures,” which means all creatures other than constructs and undead. Creatures in the spell’s area that are not of the appropriate type do not count against the creatures affected.

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Bless
Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting]
Level: Clr 1, Pal 1
Range: 50 ft.
Area: The caster and all allies within a 50-ft. burst, centered on the caster

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Bless is an area spell. Creatures are not individually selected; rather, the spell simply affects all allies in the area.

Since it is not a targetted spell, it will affect creatures with full concealment; even if the caster is blind, even if he does not know his ally is within the area, all creatures of the appropriate type (ie allies) are affected.

So, if the caster does not select creatures individually - if he can even affect creatures who are present without his knowledge - what defines an ally?

Does it depend on the belief of the caster? On the intentions of the creature? Something else?

-Hyp.

 

[Drawmack]

Check here: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=ally

I think the most usefull definition for our purposes is "To place in a friendly association, as by treaty"

Therefor anyone who is there to help the caster is an ally.

If they are there to hurt the caster they are an enemy. If they are indifirent to the caster then they are neither an ally nor a friend.

However, this does bring up a much more interesting question.

Could this spell be used to detect hidden motivations in people?

Since the caster does not have to know who or where the allies are that implies that the spell energy, in and of itself, can determine if someone is an ally.

This being the case coulde the caster line up the party and cast bless. Any unaffected party members are truely in their hearts not an ally and either mean to bring harm to the caster or are indiffierent to the caster's cause.

 

[Hypersmurf]

This being the case coulde the caster line up the party and cast bless. Any unaffected party members are truely in their hearts not an ally and either mean to bring harm to the caster or are indiffierent to the caster's cause.

That's one of the directions I'm going with this. A Detect Magic would reveal an aura of Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting] on those affected by the spell. Anyone who doesn't show that aura is, therefore, not an ally.

Bless as a doppelganger detector...

-Hyp.

 

[Vurt]

While the rules would seem to indicate you could use Bless as a bad-guy detector, I am unsure whether this constitutes a brilliantly creative use of spells or an unbalancing and unintended loophole. The latter I would simply plug up with Rule 0, of course.

Rather than asking the question, "what is an ally?", maybe it would be more useful to ask instead "who chooses who is made an ally?" Clearly not the caster, or unknown creatures in the area of effect wouldn't be affected. Perhaps the caster's deity who granted the Bless? You'd think they of all beings would get it right, but maybe they'd also be mistaken from time to time. Is there an arcane spell that also affects allies in this manner?

For the time being, here's my simple (non)definition of ally:

Ally - left to the DM as an exercise.

-- Vurt

 

[Hypersmurf]

Is there an arcane spell that also affects allies in this manner?

Healing Circle - Brd-5.

That's an even better doppelganger detector, actually... everyone makes a cut in their palm, and the cleric (or bard, or druid) casts Healing Circle. All the allies have their cuts healed; the doppelganger doesn't...

-Hyp.

 

[Wraithdrit]

No way.

As a DM I would allow the doppelganger full benefits of any ally spell as long as the cleric thought he was an ally when the spell was cast.

The spell is not a detector is an aid spell. It's intent is to aid allies, not detect them. Create a new spell and call it detect ally if you wish, but don't try to twist wording of other spells to get effects completely unintended!

I would rule that an ally is anyone in the area of effect the caster considers an ally, regardless of whether or not the caster knows that person is there (IE concealment).

"Gosh, I hope the rogue is still nearby since I'm casting bless on all of us..."

- Wraith

 

[paranoid]

Healing Circle - Brd-5.

That's an even better doppelganger detector, actually... everyone makes a cut in their palm, and the cleric (or bard, or druid) casts Healing Circle. All the allies have their cuts healed; the doppelganger doesn't...

-Hyp.

But that works only in 3.0. In 3.5, the equivalent Mass Cure Light Wounds is a targetted spell

A first indication of what an ally is is given in Prayer:
Quote from the SRD:
Area: All allies and foes within a 40-ft.-radius burst centered on you
In the descriptive text: You bring special favor upon yourself and your allies
So apparently, You are your own ally, which some people used to rule differently in 3.0 (I know some DMs who didn't let the Clerics' Healing Circle affect themselves).

So obviously the definition of ally boils down to rule 0. I would say, any apparent ally are affected. That means: any creature the caster would call an ally if he would be aware of it.

edit: quoted so everybody understands what I'm talking about.

 

[Vurt]

Hmmm... more food for thought, really, than anything else.

Can a short-term ally be a long-term enemy? What if, for the time being, that doppleganger actually is an ally!. That is, it's working towards the interests of the caster, and any deception is incidental and not intended to grief the caster in any way. Does the Healing Circle work?

Can a long-term ally be a short-term enemy? The caster and the paladin differ in opinion so strongly on some topic to such a degree that the paladin is strongly motivated to smite the infidel. For the short term, the paladin is clearly not going to help the caster in any way, shape, or form. Does the Healing Circle work on the paladin?

Do the answers to the above questions (whatever they happen to be) raise enough "reasonable doubt" that the use of the ally detector may not really be telling you what you think it's telling you?

Cool topic, BTW. Thanks Hypersmurf!

-- Vurt

 

[andargor]

I echo the opinion that the cleric's perception of friend/foe determines if someone is an ally, even if he/she can't see them at casting time.

"Colored by perception"

Andargor

EDIT: Yes, the doppleganger would get healed if in the cleric's mind, he/she is an "ally" at casting time

 

[doktorstick]

Ally, in all the games I have played, mean those that the caster wants to affect within the specified range parameters. It is unspoken that allies are those in the party including himself, unless he designates othewise. IMO, this is really the only way to run it.

/ds