What exactly makes the Greyhawk Campaign Setting

[haakon1]

PCs as centre of game is right, but neutrality as strongest isn't right - I'd say neutrality as an active balancing force - Concordance, but it's not stronger than good & evil. "No war of good versus evil" seems 100% wrong to me, I can't think of any Greyhawk work by Gygax or others where good vs evil doesn't feature, if anything it's more important in Greyhawk than FR even.

What I mean is, all the good guys aren't on the same side, and all the bad guys aren't on the same side. So, the elf queen and the Knights of Luna disagree, but they are both good. The Shield Lands and Furyondy are both good, but disagree. And the Horned Society, the Bandit Kingdoms, and Iuz are all evil, but fight each other.

This was all much more true before "Greyhawk Wars", which I loathe and ignore.

 

[haakon1]

The world comes off as vaguely similar to R.E. Howards Conan-era setting, in that many of the locations are cribbed from real world cultures, which makes it a bit bland, but easy to use.

It's also interesting that nobody can quite agree on which culture is being copied. I say Perrenland should be Switzerland, since it has cantons and mercenaries, and American Indian, since it has a primarily Flannae (non-white aborigine) population. There's never been a Swiss American Indian group of cantons before, so the DM has a guideline, and free rein to do silly things.

To me, the Great Kingdom is fallen Rome crossed with the Holy Roman Empire (medieval Germany), so you get to do crazy mixed up things -- what happens when the trade guilds (like the Hanseatic League) of Rel Astra cross with the Macchiavellian princelings of Ahlissa, etc.

 

[MaxKaladin]

When I think about Greyhawk, I think about...

Hard-core D&D dungeoneering.

I used to think about things like that. Greyhawk used to mean "D&D" to me back in the mid 80s when I was a teenager. In the last ten years or so, my encounters with Greyhawk fandom have pretty much changed things so that when I think about Greyhawk these days I think about bitter old grognards who poison everything around them with their bile and hatred for just about everything published after about 1984 and especially anything connected with the Forgotten Realms.

 

[grodog]

I used to think about things like that. Greyhawk used to mean "D&D" to me back in the mid 80s when I was a teenager. In the last ten years or so, my encounters with Greyhawk fandom have pretty much changed things so that when I think about Greyhawk these days I think about bitter old grognards who poison everything around them with their bile and hatred for just about everything published after about 1984 and especially anything connected with the Forgotten Realms.

LOL. Well, don't let them make you think that every GH grognard is that shallow and lives only to despise the FR

 

[S'mon]

What I mean is, all the good guys aren't on the same side, and all the bad guys aren't on the same side. So, the elf queen and the Knights of Luna disagree, but they are both good. The Shield Lands and Furyondy are both good, but disagree. And the Horned Society, the Bandit Kingdoms, and Iuz are all evil, but fight each other.

This was all much more true before "Greyhawk Wars", which I loathe and ignore.

Greyhawk by EGG has a strong "Good isn't really Good - Neutrality is better" theme, and the squabbling 'good' powers support this. EGG's heroes are Neutrals like Mordenkainen & Gord, Good is presented as shallow, rigid & up-its-own-a**, I think this derives from EGG being a lapsed Catholic while defining Greyhawk 'Good' more in Catholic terms rather than post-Enlightenment terms. Evil powers fighting each other rather than being monolithic, and often making deals with non-evil powers, is also a Greyhawk theme, yup.

 

[diaglo]

LOL. Well, don't let them make you think that every GH grognard is that shallow and lives only to despise the FR

that's right.

some of us despise the Greyhack stuff after 1984 too.

there was no Greyhack War in true Greyhawk

 

[Infernal Teddy]

So, why do the "old old school" people have problems with some of the 80's stuff in greyhawk? And what material is it exactly that you despise? My intro to GH was the City of Greyhawk box, and the 83 boxed set I bought second hand...

 

[VirgilCaine]

It's also interesting that nobody can quite agree on which culture is being copied. I say Perrenland should be Switzerland, since it has cantons and mercenaries, and American Indian, since it has a primarily Flannae (non-white aborigine) population.

Interesting.

 

[Nellisir]

So, why do the "old old school" people have problems with some of the 80's stuff in greyhawk? And what material is it exactly that you despise? My intro to GH was the City of Greyhawk box, and the 83 boxed set I bought second hand...

Because they hate change. THEY learned to game with character sheet written on slate and walnut shells for dice - YOU should too!

Seriously, I think the "debate" is much overblown. FtA, like it or not, is here to stay.

Greyhawk isn't so much "better" than the Realms as it is different. FR emphasizes high fantasy; Greyhawk leans towards sword & sorcery and low fantasy (which is not the same as low magic). Historically, Greyhawk (the setting, not the "fans") is much friendlier towards incongruous elements like starships and Odin-worshippers. And that all manifests itself in a different-feeling campaign setting, just like you'd expect different authors to write different books.

You can certainly play high fantasy in GH - get the PCs involved in a behind-the-scenes struggle between the Queen of High Elvendom and the half-fiend Iuz, for instance; just as you can play low fantasy in FR - get the PCs involved in a trade war between Sembia and Turmish, for instance.

It's just a different setting.
Canonfire is a good site for more information. There are a ton of resources, and most people mind their manners on the forums.

Incidently, GH offers a little more room, IMO, to fan creations and development than FR -- a side benefit of its erratic canon development. The FtA sourcebooks and the LGG gazeteer are solid accessories, but don't come close to covering the core GH region, let alone the world. So if you've got a hankering to do some writing, the Cruskii barbarians are a little less developed than the Uthgardt barbarians (for example).

Cheers
Nell.
Who is perfectly happy owning both, and homebrews his Winterfall and Shadowend campaigns anyways.

 

[Garnfellow]

Man, just about now, I really miss Nitescreed . . .

Whatever happened to him (her)? Screed was probably the most infuriating . . . and interesting poster on the old AOL Greyhawk boards. Always worth reading.