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D&D 5E What I'd Like To See Added to 5E - Weapon Comparison

Hussar

Legend
A problem that I do see with this is when you actually sit down and play. The vast majority of monsters neither wear armour nor use weapons. Unless your campaign features a lot of humanoids and giants, these rules just won't come up that often. What kind of an attack does an Ochre Jelly make? Bludgeoning? I guess, but, it's not really - it's more engulfing you. When a frog bites you, is that slashing or piercing? How about when you are swallowed whole?

And what kind of armour is a pegasus wearing? Or a manticore? Or a beholder? How do you calculate the weapon properties then?

This was always the problem back in AD&D too. Sure, if you're attacking that orc in chain mail, no problem. But, so many encounters aren't based around weapon attacks.
 

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Hussar

Legend
IIRC, the armor mods did not apply to monsters, only humanoids who used weapons.

So, there was no problem in AD&D.

But, since the vast majority of encounters are against monsters, then the choice of weapon or armour makes no difference in the vast majority of encounters. You are far better off with long sword than hammer in most encounters because, as you say, the armour mods did not apply to monsters. I'm not sure that's right, btw, but, I'll defer to those that know the system better than me.

Why would I choose to use a hammer and not a longsword, when the bonuses for using a hammer are only going to come up in a small number of encounters?
 

Water Bob

Adventurer
Well, it applies to fighting goblin and kobolds, orcs, ogres, giants, ettins, trogledytes (sp?), orcs, hobgoblins, draconians, bandits, gnolls...just about anything that does wear armor and use a weapon. Even skeletons, if they are wearing effective armor.

So, the rule was used more than you probably are thinking.

But, that's the way 2E AD&D did it. A variant rule for 5E could include monsters. There's no reason it couldn't.
 

Lidgar

Gongfarmer
Doesn't the resistance and vulnerability mechanics 5e already addresses this in monsters? Why not apply the same mechanics to armor type as an optional rule?

So, for more of a 1e/2e feel, perhaps use the Speed Factor from the DMG and apply the resistance/vulnerability mechanics to armor types:

Plate: Resist slashing/piercing damage, vulnerable to bludgeoning damage.
Chain: Resist slashing/bludgeoning, vulnerable to piercing damage.
Leather: Resist slashing

Or something along those lines.
 
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Saeviomagy

Adventurer
The main issue, to me, is that this isn't really a meaningful differentiation. As your example pointed out, there is always a best option, and the entire system boils down to "are your players mathy enough and unattached to their weapons sufficiently to always pick the best option?".

Much better to make a system where the 'best' option comes down to something that's more dynamic than just an ongoing change to average damage. Reach, range, initiative modifiers and versatility are things that change how you fight round-to-round.
 

CapnZapp

Legend
My main aim with any weapon rules: let the player choose what he or she thinks looks cool.

Any ruleset more involved than WFRP's "hand weapon" needs a clause allowing a player to reskin any weapon to pretty much any other, as long as the player and DM agrees.

Any ruleset that makes, say, axes worse than hammers, and therefore makes the results-oriented player choose another weapon than his vision of cool, is a sad ruleset indeed.
 
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Psikerlord#

Explorer
As much as I like what I read about 5E, I'm sorry to see that the differences in weapons continued to be watered down.

Remember back in the 1E AD&D days? One of the attractive aspects of the dart was that it had a rate of fire of 3, meaning that you could make three attacks with the weapon in a single combat round. The dart only did 1d3 damage to S/M creatures, but if you hit all three times, the damage would add up. That's 3-9 points, skewing towards 4-5 points (because you're rolling 3 dice), with a high minimum damage throw. Your 1st level Magic User, with darts, could potentially do as much damage with his darts as the party's fighter with his longsword.

Of course, the mage would not hit as often as the fighter. And, if you recall, 1E AD&D also used modifiers for different types of armor. If the target was wearing AC 5 chain, then the longsword has an edge because it's +0 vs. AC 5. Darts are -2 vs. AC 5.

But, do you see what I'm getting at? In 1E AD&D, there were reasons to use weapons other than just, "Well, how much damage do they do? I want the weapon that does the most damage."

Take the hammer vs. the longsword. Why would any fighter ever use a hammer? The hammer does 1d4+1 vs. S/M creatures, where the longsword does 1d8. But, look at the Armor Class Adjustments for the hammer. Against most armor types, the hammer is going to hit more often than the longsword.

What do you think is the better weapon against a target in plate and using a shield (AC 2), the hammer or the longsword?

It's the hammer! The longsword is -2 to hit vs. AC 2 while there is no modifier with the hammer. So, would you rather hit more often (10% more often), doing 2-5 damage with the hammer, or would you rather hit less often and have the potential to do both more and less damage (2-5 for the hammer, 1-8 for the longsword).

See the trade off?

When you selected your weapons in 1E AD&D, you had to consider the enemies that you would likely fight. You didn't just go for the weapon that did the highest damage. You had to consider how often you would hit, as well.

I really miss that--the picking of the right tool for the job.

(And....I didn't even talk about the obvious...that weapons in 1E AD&D had TWO damage ratings: One for S/M targets, and one for Large targets. This gave the wielder even something else to consider. "How does the weapon perform against large targets?")







FLASH FORWARD TO AD&D 2E.

Here, there is still some differences to consider about weapons, but it's been watered down quite a bit. Now, instead of armor modifiers specific to a weapon, the modifier is tied to the basic damage a weapon does: Slash, Blunt, Pierce.

In AD&D 2E, the hammer (now called a warhammer), a blunt weapon, has no modifier against a foe wearing plate mail. The longsword (an edged weapon), however, is -3 vs. that same foe in plate mail.

This made for easier-to-use rules, I guess, because you didn't have a string of modifiers for every weapon against several AC types as you did in 1E AD&D (I never found them hard to use), but you lose a little something when comparing like weapons--like two edged weapons.

What was added in 2E AD&D, though, was a re-purposing of the Speed Factor. This sometimes used mechanic in 1E AD&D (it was used to break d6 initiative ties in 1E AD&D) became an every-combat-used mechanic in 2E AD&D as a weapon's Speed Factor directly influenced a character's initiative. The SF became a modifier to the character's initiative throw. So, if a character was using a wand (SF +3), a creature was using a breath weapon (SF +1), and a fighter was using his longsword (SF +5), with all other factors being equal, it was likely that the creature's breath weapon would happen first, followed by the wand, followed, lastly, by the swing of the longsword.

And, a weapon's SF (as well as the weapon's damage vs. Large targets) became the primary means to weigh the advantages of like weapons. For example, the battleaxe and the longsword both do 1d8 damage. Both are slashing weapons, so the armor modifier is the same for both weapons. The difference between the two is in what the weapon does against Larger foes (battleaxe does 1d8, longsword does 1d12), and also the weapon's Speed Factor (How quickly can the weapon be used--how bulky is it?). The battleaxe has a Speed Factor of +7, where the longsword has SF +5. Which means....the longsword is a much better weapon to use overall (faster, plus much more damage vs. Large).







FLASH FORWARD, AGAIN, TO D&D 3E

For all of the crunch used in the third edition of the game, all of this neat weapon comparison stuff was erased! Gone. No more!

The only real difference between weapons is...how much damage do they do? (And, of course, there's the class restrictions--or Feat restrictions--, but that has been true in each of the D&D editions).

Why would you ever use a dart under the 3E rules? Answer: You wouldn't! And, in no way can the 3E dart ever hope to rival the longsword (as it did in 1E AD&D, as I explained above).

Weapon selection in 3E D&D is based on class (what can I use?) and roleplaying (I think it would be neat for my barbarian to carry a battleaxe). But, many players are just going to default to the usable weapon with the highest damage.

Sure, you've got some basic comparisons, like one-handed vs. two-handed. And, maybe something special about a certain weapon (this one can be used to trip; that one can't). But, gone are the various weapon statistics that made weapon selection so interesting in the earlier editions (at least, from my point of view).

I don't want to say that there's no means of weapon comparison besides damage in the 3E game. There's a couple of factors: one-handed vs. two-handed, reach weapons, finesse weapons, Critical Threat Range.... But, as a whole, I don't think that 3E does near as good a job making differences in weapons as either 1E AD&D or 2E AD&D.







VARIANTS - THE HOPE FOR WEAPON SELECTION

So, what happens is, that weapon selection stats can be added again to the game through optional rules or variant rules. For example, the CONAN RPG (published by Mongoose) is based on the 3.5 d20 set of mechanics. But, in that game, armor does not make a person harder to hit as it does in standard D&D. Armor absorbs damage when a character is hit.

Weapons are graded with a new stat called Armor Piercing. This rates the weapon's ability to deliver damage to armored foes. The higher the AR rating, the easier it is to damage foes wearing armor.

For example, a cutlass is rated at AR 2. That's low. The weapon is not a good weapon to use against armored foes. Yet, the cutlass does 1d10 damage in this game.

Compare that to the warhammer. It only does 1d6 damage. But, it's Armor Piercing rating is AR 7. That's pretty good. The weapon will bash through most types of armor.

If your foe is wearing a mail shirt, would you rather do 1d10 -5 damage with the cutlass (hitting, but scoring 0 damage on half your hits, and 1-5 points of damage the other half of the time when you hit), or would you rather do 1d6 -2 damage with the war hammer (hitting, but scoring 0 damage a third of the time, and 1-4 points of damage two thirds of the time when you hit).

Obviously, the warhammer is the better weapon against that foe.

But, Pirates typically go up against seamen on other vessels--and those sailors are usually not armored or only lightly armored. Against a non-armored or lightly armored foe, the cutlass is the superior weapon. It's AR 2 rating is enough to do some good damage against lightly armored foes, and damage will average much higher than that of the warhammer.

So, in the Conan RPG, you've got a real, mechanical reason to see cutlasses often used by Pirates, and the warhammer will typically be seen only on large battlefields where knights in heavy armor fight to win the day.







WHAT I'D LIKE TO SEE IN 5E D&D

From what I've seen of 5E, weapons are rated very much as they were in 3E. That is to say that the neat weapon comparison stats like those in 1E and 2E AD&D have been watered down as they were in 3E D&D.

I'd like to see a Variant rule that will do for the game what the Conan RPG did for 3.5 D&D. I'm not saying that the Conan RPG should be copied. 1E and 2E AD&D show that there are many different ways to skin a goat. But, whatever it is, I'd like to see some weapon stats/rules that make the choice of weapon something more than just picking the weapon that does the most damage from the lot a character can choose from.

Am I the only one who would like to see this?
I think you should submit a new 5e weapon differentiation chart for Ensider! I'd buy it! You might as well do armour too while you're at it - I'd buy that too!

Hmm or is there OGL style issues with that. Bloody hell, give us that OGL devs so we can sort sh*t out.
 

For all of the crunch used in the third edition of the game, all of this neat weapon comparison stuff was erased! Gone. No more!
I have to disagree with you, on this point. Almost every weapon in 3.x was balanced against other weapons of the same proficiency type (simple or martial). It's just that most weapons were highly situational, and the "best" ones were the ones that didn't have any special properties.

If you wanted a one-handed martial weapon, then you general took either the longsword or the battle axe (depending on your critical hit preference). Unless you wanted to finesse it, in which case you took the rapier. Or if you wanted to disarm someone, you might take the flail.

It meant that most weapons were useful for someone, but each character only had two or three "best" weapons to choose from. It shifted the decision point from the nature of your enemy to the nature of yourself.

From what I've seen of 5E, weapons are rated very much as they were in 3E. That is to say that the neat weapon comparison stats like those in 1E and 2E AD&D have been watered down as they were in 3E D&D.
As a game designer, when you decide whether to implement variable weapon performance based on targets, you have two basic avenues of approach:

1) Make it really matter. Make it so that the longsword is effectively worthless against plate armor, and you need a warhammer to really succeed. Resistance/Vulnerability fall into this category.

2) Make it not really matter. Make it so that the longsword is marginally less effective against plate armor, so the guy with the warhammer gets to shine for a bit, but the sword-user doesn't feel compelled to switch. Something like a +1 to hit or damage would fall into this category.

The problem with (1) is that it removes choice. There's no point in using the wrong weapon, so you obviously switch. It's not even a question. Every fighter carries a golf bag with at least three weapons that are all suitable to different circumstances. In 5E, your first object-interaction in the round is free, so there's not even a cost associated with this.

The problem with (2) is that it's too much bookkeeping for too little effect. Every fighter keeps using one preferred weapon, because the inconvenience of carrying multiple weapons and switching between them (and tracking that all on your character sheet) is too great relative to the payoff of a 5% chance that something might matter. In 5E, small bonuses and penalties are avoided, for exactly this reason; if it's not big enough for advantage/disadvantage, or resistance/vulnerability, then it's a waste of time.

(Both 2E and 3E also got to this point, regarding weapons specialization - there might be a significant reason to use one weapon over another, but that reason wasn't enough to overcome the benefits gained from sticking to your preferred weapon.)

A game is defined as a series of meaningful choices. Neither path, here, makes for a better game. There is no meaningful choice involved. Either you obviously switch, or you obviously don't switch, but you're almost never in a position where it's worth thinking about. At most, you gain some minor verisimilitude. Which is great, of course, but you need to weigh it against the complexity cost.
 

Hriston

Dungeon Master of Middle-earth (He/him)
I made a quick conversion of the 1E table of modifiers. Maybe this is the kind of thing you're looking for. To explain somewhat, I adjusted the numbers to conform with the ability score modifiers in 5E being different from those of 1E. You can see it here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1NjBj8nkATJV4-f2ndAWIm6fllRGEioYjdg7rNQgTITI/pubhtml. I only included weapons and armor shared by both systems, but it's a start. Let me know what you think.
 
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