D&D 4E What I'd Like to See in D&D® 4e

[Li Shenron]

I would like a solution for multiclassing, which would keep the 3e simplicity in mechanics but would also work well for any combination of classes, and for most combinations of a class and a monster class. I don't know what the solution could be, but probably it would involve a re-thinking of stacking of the features between the classes. (This because IMHO 3e multiclassing is being all the time stitched with band-aids like Practice Spellcaster or Mystic Theurge, and it'd be nice if it didn't need these since the start)

I would like 4e to really embrace the "options, not restrictions" dogma, especially I would like if the game got rid of the few left restrictions which don't have a way to be bypassed once you've made your choice. (Wizard forbidden schools for example)

 

[reanjr]

I would like a solution for multiclassing, which would keep the 3e simplicity in mechanics but would also work well for any combination of classes, and for most combinations of a class and a monster class. I don't know what the solution could be, but probably it would involve a re-thinking of stacking of the features between the classes. (This because IMHO 3e multiclassing is being all the time stitched with band-aids like Practice Spellcaster or Mystic Theurge, and it'd be nice if it didn't need these since the start)

I would like 4e to really embrace the "options, not restrictions" dogma, especially I would like if the game got rid of the few left restrictions which don't have a way to be bypassed once you've made your choice. (Wizard forbidden schools for example)

A whole bunch of things I think could be fixed simply by referring to character level rather than class level. Caster level comes to mind immediately. Monk flurry of blows. Turning. There's a lot more.

 

[Mouseferatu]

The other issue with unlimited spells is that I dislike using casting time as a balancing factor. Outside of combat, casting time is meaningless until/unless it starts getting into many hours, or even days. In combat, a casting time of more than a round forces the player to sit back and do nothing except watch his friends game. I've played in games where sorcerery took longer than everything else. I hated it, because I didn't get to do anything. While I'm sure there are some people who aren't bothered by that, I've yet to meet one.

Don't take this the wrong way. My intent here is not to shoot down further discussion of the idea. (And obviously, you've got me thinking about it. ) I'm just explaining why, at the moment, I find the concept unworkable. I'm willing to be convinced otherwise, either here or--when I'm a little more coherent--with my own further contemplation.

 

[Plane Sailing]

If I were to go out on a limb, these are some of the things I think I'd like to see.

1) rework magic system completely. Call of Cthulhu d20 has a very interesting alternative, for instance.

2) eliminate all "uses per day" things (spells, feats, class abilities) and come up with some other mechanism for them all, whether it be time, resource or whatever.

3) eliminate BAB and instead use skills for combat

4) simplify certain skills by merging them together

5) Provide core mechanisms for fun resolution of non-combat tasks and situations, and support and guidance for DMs in creating those situations.

6) Rules and mechanisms for high level characters to get involved politically in campaigns (so that high level campaigns can easily become more "mover and shaker" type games rather than just dungeons with tougher monsters but otherwise just like low level).

Going out more on a limb...

7) an alternative to hp mechanic. Whether armour as DR, damage save as per M&M or something new and better.

8) remove iterative attacks. Everyone gets two actions a round to use for some combination of movement, attacks or something else.

9) include active parry/block mechanism rather than reply upon an implication that it might be going on.

Do I expect to see any of these things? Probably not

 

[reanjr]

The other issue with unlimited spells is that I dislike using casting time as a balancing factor. Outside of combat, casting time is meaningless until/unless it starts getting into many hours, or even days. In combat, a casting time of more than a round forces the player to sit back and do nothing except watch his friends game. I've played in games where sorcerery took longer than everything else. I hated it, because I didn't get to do anything. While I'm sure there are some people who aren't bothered by that, I've yet to meet one.

Don't take this the wrong way. My intent here is not to shoot down further discussion of the idea. (And obviously, you've got me thinking about it. ) I'm just explaining why, at the moment, I find the concept unworkable. I'm willing to be convinced otherwise, either here or--when I'm a little more coherent--with my own further contemplation.

Well, in reference to Teleport, I WAS intending that to be taken as hours. I don't think of it as a combat spell. Word of Recall works much better for that purpose, IMO. I like the idea of needing a keyed location for an escape spell. I'm sure there are a couple of spells that would be fairly unworkable, but those can always be dropped from the game.

 

[ZSutherland]

Most of the things I would personally prefer can be corrected in 3.x w/ simple house rules, so I won't address them. The rest are more complicated.

1) I'll echo Darkness. I'd like to see class features less arbitrarily derived. AEG has provided an ellegant example with Spycraft. It is fairly easy to create new classes (both core and prestige) under their system (which you can find on their discussion boards). This would give DMs the ability to easily refit the system for their own needs while staying within the assumptions of the system. The DMG also suggests DMs create prestige classes for their own campaigns, but this is very diffucult with no set pattern in evidence.

2) I will not ask for an end to mini's or encounter exp and all the other trappings of dungeon crawl D&D. In some form or fashion, it's the way most of us originally learned to play the game. It's easy and the repetition helps new players quickly learn the rules. I would, however, like to see more thought out suggestions on variant ways to handle exp awards than "You can choose to give out story or RP exp." Many groups forgo this method eventually as their style of play changes, but they have little guidance on how to go about it.

3) I'd like to see the system less dependent on equipment. The PHB isn't particularly dependent, but wealth levels play a huge role in both the DMG and the MM. CR assumes the PCs are properly equipped for their level according to the wealth charts. Personally, I run relatively high magic campaingns, but I understand many people prefer low magic and it's very difficult when the core system largely assumes that at a certain level, the PCs are decked from head to toe in magic gear. I'd like a system where a character's wealth in actual items temporarily modifies his ECL so that encounters can be more easily assigned based on your play style.

4) I'd like to see Item Creation and Metamagic reworked so that they are all viable options. I know it was a huge change from 2e and the designers were rightfully conservative with them, but I wish both had been corrected in 3.5. IMO, it is somewhat silly that a spellcaster making a magic item (a fairly in character thing to do for a spellcaster), a process by which he might reasonably learn something about the workings of magic, loses exp. I undestand the personal power arguement, but it doesn't make much sense and many players I've encountered are hesitant to use them for fear that they will fall behind. As for metamagic, it is generally too expensive. I'd like to see more feats for spellcasters along the Augment Summoning line.

5) This ties into #3, but I'd like to see a defense bonus based on levels. Again, I understand that HP are not VP/WP and are an abstraction of your character's ability to avoid hits, or turn lethal blows into scratches and bruises, but it makes too much sense to have a defensive counterpart to BAB that indicates your defensive skill in combat w/o relying overmuch on equipment.

Z

 

[arscott]

I'd like to see basic and advanced classes, a level-based defense bonus, and a general de-emphasis of treasure. You know something's wrong when a first-level character earns more gold in a day than most people do in their lifetime. I'd like to see a silver or copper standard, with expensive items like plate-mail being something you might not get until 8th or 9th level, and +4 armor an artifact-level item. I hate the you're-third-level-so-by-now-you-ought-to-have-a-plus-one-sword mentality. I'd like to see magic be magical again.

The Vancian System gets really annoying really fast, and The limited spells per day are likewise annoying.

I'd like to see a mana point system, with the following features:

spell disciplines: in order to add simplicity, flexibiliy, and modularity, I'd like to see the spell list split up into balanced categories. So you can just say "a cleric has major access to healing spells, protection spells, and either holy or unholy spells, plus minor access to elemental spells and curses." That would make it easier to customize spell lists while avoiding annoying problems like "why do I get prismatic wall, but not prismatic spray?"

Incantations, or some other way of allowing non-casters to use weak or extremely specialised spell like effects for story purposes.

Mastery of low level spells: A high level wizard can kill with a single word. He can step across the boundries of the universe, rain sulfer and brimstone down upon armies, and even unravel and reweave the threads of reality. So why can he only cast light four times a day?

 

[feydras]

Great topic!

I really like many of the suggestions i've heard so far. A few of my own, some already mentioned...

1> Scrap current magic system. How about a skill check based system. This would entail a major overhaul of the current framework but would more closely mimic a lot of magic in fantasy. Perhaps this could be balanced with casting fatigue of some sort. I'm interested in checking out the Black Company Setting as i hear it has something like this.

2> Armor as damage reduction with all the mess this would entail built in. For a great example of this see The Waking Lands website... http://www.wakinglands.com/htm_files/the_combat_variant_page.htm

3> An optional, workable called shot rule with rules for piecemeal armor.

4> Less dependence on buffing magic items. It is very difficult to run a low magic item game as it destroys the balance of classes and CR encounters. Also eliminate magic items that grant class specific abilities instead of enhancing them. Ex. amulet granting undead turning.

5> Combat maneuvers and skill based stunts like in the Book of Iron Might. Great product!

6> Permanent spell effects seperated into rituals similar to S&S Relics and Rituals or Living Imagination's Spellbound.

7> Weapon Group proficiencies from Unearthed Arcana. These are fantastic, only a minor change and add a lot of flavor.

8> Tracking and trapfinding available to anyone, albeit at a very high difficulty.

- Feydras

 

[Li Shenron]

A whole bunch of things I think could be fixed simply by referring to character level rather than class level. Caster level comes to mind immediately. Monk flurry of blows. Turning. There's a lot more.

For example... But it still leaves some doubts when a high-level (10th) character takes its first level in a new class (Monk) and is suddenly able to e.g. deal unarmed damage as a 11th level Monk. Not everything probably should be based on character-level. In any case, I'd like this sort of things to be addressed and something figured out.

 

[Verequus]

I like the principle structure of the 3rd edition - changing basics like BAB seems unnecessary. At least, I don't know, why the referred ideas of alternatives should be better. Still, I have my gripes. The premise, that everything is possible, isn't true - D&D is only somewhat semi-generic and needs a further "GURPS-ification" in regard of being more modular.

So I'd like to have a better magic system - the one, I want to see incorparated in 4th edition, is Elements of Magic Revised. The ones, who said, psionics is a better system than the original system, should check it out - it is IMO far better than every alternative, I know of, although it still has some areas, which need improvement.

The other thing, which comes to my mind now, is to remove classes and make the system point-buy based. Next to have a more or less automatically balanced system - the core classes aren't entirely balanced in the first 20 levels, which results in having a 20th level cleric being as powerful as a 23th level fighter and makes a true point-buy replication difficult - everyone can buy the options, he wants to have.

But I haven't seen a system without any flaws - at least the avoidable ones. Class-based systems limit inherent flexibility, while point-buy systems need a correct pricing, which is dependent on the type of campaign - dungeon bashing emphasises other options than mere political intrigue, but both styles aren't really the assumed default, so a point-buy system should allow repricing without getting out of wack.

Also, point-buy should prevent overspecializing, but without stopping it from happening - if I want to have a 20th level expert with only 3 hitdice, then it should be able to cope with this request. If someone wants to focus overly (like putting everything in BAB and hitdice), then he should can, without being able to unbalance the campaign due to ending up as a special target of the GM. Both Dr. Spunj's and Thanee's system assume a commoner as base and limit everything like the core classes, so they are out. Furthermore, adding new options should be easy and allow a correct pricing - nothing more annoying, if an ability should cost 3.5 points, but you can only pay 3 or 4 points. Granularity is the keyword.

Buy The Numbers is granular enough, but suffers from negledging of synergy effects or overstates them. If you can buy abilities at a constant cost, linear cost or a quadratic cost, then you are going to pay the higher costs only, if you think that they are necessary - in the end, min-maxed characters are unbalanced, while class-mimicking characters suffer from too high costs eventually.

Maybe a point-buy system, which is universal, is impossible, but we can still hope, can we?

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There are still points to consider, but I won't discuss them here.