What is brittle/crystalline?

[Malin Genie]

The 3.5E Shout and Greater Shout spell descriptions mention brittle and crystalline material taking damage. What, exactly, is considered brittle or crystalline (have I missed a clarification somewhere in the Core rulebooks)?

In the 3.0 FRCS the spell description mentions 'stone, crystal and metal objects', which was more clear-cut.

Stone is crystalline, in a technical sense - so do stone objects take damage in 3.5E? Iron is relatively brittle, precious metals ductile, steel somewhere in between - so what metals, if any, take damage?

 

[dcollins]

The FRCS are apparently anomalous, because every core-rules version of Shout, et. al., just says "brittle or crystalline" -- this includes the PHB in 3.5, 3.0, 2nd, and 1st edition.

This category would be quite narrow, and I'd definitely say "no" to stone. Yes to some animated chandelier, or a gemstone golem, or something that someone polymorph any object'ed into a crystal figure. The 1st Ed. text (UA) includes a wall of ice as an example.

 

[Malin Genie]

I was referring to the FRCS version of Great Shout. I can't remember if the Tome and Blood version stated 'crystalline/brittle' or was the same as the FRCS version.

So - very little is affected (unless you were to cast it at Versailles )?

 

[dcollins]

I agree, very little.

 

[MerakSpielman]

The FRCS are apparently anomalous, because every core-rules version of Shout, et. al., just says "brittle or crystalline" -- this includes the PHB in 3.5, 3.0, 2nd, and 1st edition.

This category would be quite narrow, and I'd definitely say "no" to stone. Yes to some animated chandelier, or a gemstone golem, or something that someone polymorph any object'ed into a crystal figure. The 1st Ed. text (UA) includes a wall of ice as an example.

All your examples are things that are both brittle and crystalline. Surely the spell would also be able to affect things that are merely brittle or crystalline.

I'd say that anything that would shatter into numerous, sharp shards when you hit it with a hammer would qualify as brittle (such as a brick, or an old, dry skull).

I'm having trouble coming up with a description of crystalline that doesn't go into modern chemestry, atoms, or molecules. Anybody got any ideas?

 

[Mephistopheles]

It comes down to what the intended meaning of the word brittle is in context of the spell description. The most reasonable and simplest assumption is that it is intended to refer to obviously fragile objects.

However, after doing a bit of casual research into brittle materials I think it wouldn't be unreasonable to extend the list of valid materials that are affected. Some possible inclusions would be ceramics, stone, and some wood and metals (although conditions such as moisture and temperature may affect whether these last two would be considered brittle). In general, any material that can sustain a large amount of stress before it starts to deform, and when it deforms it breaks rather than bending or warping, and once the break starts it breaks very quickly. So, for example, you bend a wooden stick over your leg and it's going to flex but suddenly it will snap. Stone breaks in a similar way, it just doesn't flex (noticeably, anyway) and it takes a lot more stress to get the process of breaking started. (Disclaimer: this is all based on about twenty minutes worth of internet research, so if I am wrong about any or all of it hopefully someone who knows more about it will be able to set things straight.)

Out of interest, the Destructive Harmonics supernatural ability of the Destrachan lists "wood, stone, metal, or glass" as the materials that the sonic attack can shatter. This isn't decisive in regards to shout, but it may be a little insight into what could be considered brittle materials with regards to sonic attacks.

Whatever the case, both shout and great shout do pretty well against objects as sonic energy attacks do full damage to objects and ignore hardness.

 

[Sejs]

Wood, stone, glass, crystal/gemstone, dried bone (not the currently-in-an-organism kind), ice, etc. Quite possibly metal.

Ask yourself: is the substance rigid?

 

[Felix]

Peanut Brittle.

 

[dcollins]

Ask yourself: is the substance rigid?

Eh, shouldn't one be asking, is the substance "brittle or crystalline"?

 

[MerakSpielman]

actually, by a strict logical interpretation of the phrase "brittle or crystalline," objects that meet both conditions would NOT be effected, since the condition "or" does not allow for "and."