What is Expected from an Oriental Game Setting?

[ProfessorCirno]

Why not? We already do it with regular D&D? Why not have Japanese inspired ninjas roaming around battling Naga? My Chinese wizardy type summons Apsaras to do battle with your Oni. Fantastic in my mind.

One of the strengths of D&D is that we have no problems with characters that, in any sort of realistic sense, could never have met, let alone adventure together.

I endorse Clavis and vote that he heads up the development of a new OA book.

Because your Chinese wizardry type can summon Apsaras to do battle with my Oni even better if they aren't all from the same country. it gives them a far bigger reason to do so. And now you can set up a rather awesome story as to why you summon the Apsaras instead of "Oh I just saw it across the street one day, hanging out with the elephants."

Mashing them all together is half-assing it, and it greatly reduces the potential for intrigue and conflict. Sure, all the vaguely European countries in D&D have this issue of being mashed together, but I don't see anyone claiming that we should jam elves and dwarves and halfings into the same big ULTRA COUNTRY as well. On the contrary - elves have their own kingdom, dwarves have their own kingdom, etc, etc. Why should we force the opposite on the Asia themed setting?

 

[Mallus]

We're saying HAVE all the cool stuff, but don't half-ass it and make it all one big nation/culture. Spread the stuff out. HAVE the cool Japanese stuff - and Clavis, I don't mean everything has to be gritty and realistic, it can be fantasized - but have it in the vaguely Japanese-esque area. Have the cool Indian stuff, but don't have it casually strolling around in that vaguely Japanese-esque area.

Thanks for clarifying. It's certainly one way to do it; different analogues for each different real-world culture/myth system (or at least something close to that). But I don't see that as an inherently better approach. I'm more interested in the execution than the conceptual framework.

I get plenty of mileage in my homebrew out of a single pan-Asian nation, The Empire of the Three Pillars of Heaven, also called the Islands of Ajakhan (named for their most famous export, a geisha who became a goddess in another country). It's a deliberate blend of different Asian pop-cultural references. I kinda picture the setting as something from a big-budget South Korean wuxia film that gleefully ripped off several decades worth of HK kung-fu movies and Japanese samurai flicks.

 

[The Grackle]

Mashing together various sources doesn't bother me- that's very D&D. What does annoy me is the lack of research. I wouldn't play a far-eastern themed game if it was a hodgepodge of only the most obvious tropes and cliches: "There's like kung fu guys and samurais." blech. The East has tons of awesome myths and monsters, and not tapping into that is sad. It's not the inaccuracy, it's the missed potential.

 

[Ashanderai]

Thanks for your responses, everyone. Overall, the impression I get from this thread is that folks aren't as concerned about historical adherence or accuracy as long as cultural and mythological considerations have been researched and are well-considered as well as making sure that the far-eastern setting has a logical, internal consistency, even if it does end up being a pistache of different sources, though it is best if each culture is distinct and is handled with respect.

I concur and that is what I have done with the setting I have written in Lands of the Jade Oath.

BTW, for a sample of what I am talking about there is now a preview of the Demon Hunter class that will be in the first book in the setting, "Heroes of the Jade Oath".

 

[Varianor Abroad]

I get plenty of mileage in my homebrew out of a single pan-Asian nation, The Empire of the Three Pillars of Heaven, also called the Islands of Ajakhan (named for their most famous export, a geisha who became a goddess in another country). It's a deliberate blend of different Asian pop-cultural references. I kinda picture the setting as something from a big-budget South Korean wuxia film that gleefully ripped off several decades worth of HK kung-fu movies and Japanese samurai flicks.

This sounds pretty cool.

 

[Snoweel]

Are player's of such character just anime fans and munchkin players or do you realize that there is more to those who play these types of characters; that these players might be looking for something more out of their roleplaying perhaps?

Is this a question or just smug self-aggrandisement?

Dude, I love asian-inspired campaign settings, and your product looks pretty cool, but don't insult our intelligence.

Anyway, for the record I like my fantasy settings to be populated by fantasy cultures, not real-life historical ones. So while I'm a big fan of cultural window-dressing borrowed from real-life history, I don't need all the bits and pieces that make classical D&D adventuring (tomb-raiding, killing monsters, looting their corpses, and socially independent, self-interested itinerancy) more trouble than it's worth.

So while I love Samurai, what I really want in my game are "samurai" - blokes with a katana, a wakizashi and a pair of sandals, but who have no issue with carrying money, touching dead bodies or gambling with riff-raff down at the tea house.

Obviously I'm not too interested in immersive roleplaying - I'm a storyteller, not a method actor - so the constraints on social interaction imposed by historical representations of one or another caste system don't really appeal to me. The kinds of games I like to play (mystery/investigation/frequent violence) are best facilitated by a fairly modern, egalitarian version of historical fantasy cultures.

 

[CruelSummerLord]

Is this a question or just smug self-aggrandisement?

Dude, I love asian-inspired campaign settings, and your product looks pretty cool, but don't insult our intelligence.

Anyway, for the record I like my fantasy settings to be populated by fantasy cultures, not real-life historical ones. So while I'm a big fan of cultural window-dressing borrowed from real-life history, I don't need all the bits and pieces that make classical D&D adventuring (tomb-raiding, killing monsters, looting their corpses, and socially independent, self-interested itinerancy) more trouble than it's worth.

So while I love Samurai, what I really want in my game are "samurai" - blokes with a katana, a wakizashi and a pair of sandals, but who have no issue with carrying money, touching dead bodies or gambling with riff-raff down at the tea house.

Obviously I'm not too interested in immersive roleplaying - I'm a storyteller, not a method actor - so the constraints on social interaction imposed by historical representations of one or another caste system don't really appeal to me. The kinds of games I like to play (mystery/investigation/frequent violence) are best facilitated by a fairly modern, egalitarian version of historical fantasy cultures.

This ties into something else that bothered me-if one player has a samurai character, for example, can he really go off with the other party members, or is he stuck doing step-and-fetch quests for his master all the time? Does acting with "honor" mean violating your alignment? Why would anyone say an insult, given that it would provoke a feud? Why would anyone act dishonorably in the first place, if the culture places such a heavy stigma against violating the code of ethics?

Reading through the original Oriental Adventures, I found that the lengthy section on honor added little of value to the game and in fact really seemed to suck a lot of the fun out of it, if you're stuck observing all these little niceties that aren't much fun to begin with, especially when NPCs act "dishonorably" with few negative consequences.

Instead, play around with the traditional tropes and use them to your advantage. Maybe that samurai isn't devoted to a master, but rather a philosophy inspired by real-life Bushido. The samurai seeks to live his life according to those principles, which grant him tremendous power and skill. At the same time, he acts as an adventurer to gain honor and fame for his clan, as well as treasure to increase its social standing. Just as nobles in an Occidental culture might seek to prove themselves worthy of the family name through their heroic deeds, high-born Oriental people might find the adventuring path a way to increase their house's standing and glory, while proving themselves worthy of their ancestors' legacy.

Against such considerations, any possible stigma against associating with the lower-born classes suddenly counts for much, much less.

What's that Brahmin doing wandering around like a commoner, ransacking old ruins and seizing treasure, when he has priestly duties to attend to? You might ask the same thing of any typical Western cleric-why does his temple allow him to spend all his time wandering around and fighting monsters, instead of preaching to converts and holding regular services?

The Brahmin and the Western cleric are adventuring for the same reasons-their faiths state that, in order to attain true spiritual purity, they must travel the world to better understand it, fight on behalf of the faithful, and seek to inspire others to join the faith. One heroic deed is more effective at inspiring people than a thousand fiery words. More material considerations are at hand, too-the different faiths compete with one another for followers and prestige, and, sadly enough, even religions have bills to pay. That extra wealth the Brahmin or cleric gains in his travels could mean the difference between prosperity and ruin.

Western, Conan-style barbarians set out into the world to prove their manhood...so why can't a monk, magic-user, or ninja do the same thing, travelling the world to seek enlightenment? All social classes and races may have potentially valuable knowledge, and refusing to associate with people in a lower social strata would be seen as foolishness. The parties formed by Oriental adventurers can be just as racially and socially diverse as any Occidental party, and no one will blink an eye.

These are just some examples, but it shows how one can modify aspects of Oriental culture to create an internally consistent setting that still allows for the basic aspects of D&D that Snoweel mentions. If we're going to mess with the social structure of Europe in order to make the fantasy cultures based on it fit better with the game, I don't see why we need to be any more accurate with the Oriental ones.

 

[TwinBahamut]

It is hard to say what exactly I want (other than basic stuff like a well-written and mechanically interesting setting), but there are a few things that come to mind.

I don't mind mashing together cultural elements from different real world countries and regions. What I don't want is the real world with the serial numbers filed off. I don't want a "stereotypical Chinese land" and a "stereotypical Japanese land". Just like normal D&D tends to be inclusive of different cultural ideas, an Asian D&D setting should be as inclusive as possible without requiring the player characters to travel hundreds of miles to see something new. Furthermore, the "China land" and "Japan land" mentality lends itself to game design that is more built around stereotypes, faulty grasps of history, and limited creativity.

What want to see is a setting that can grasp something akin to "Asian fantasy as imagined by people from Asia". As an example, some of my favorite Japanese anime series, such as The Twelve Kingdoms or Moribito, are set in truly great settings that are based on asian history and myth, but manage to surpass those things and become something unique unto themselves. In such stories, the focus is on the interesting stories to be told, leaving the cultural differences left in the background.

One thing I really do not want to see at all is an unnatural emphasis on Honor. This kind of thing is not historically accurate at all and makes for a lousy game. I hated Rokugan because of this kind of thing. It takes Edo-period samurai ideology (created by samurai who lived in the midst of 200 years of peace and social stability) and trying to apply it to something like Sengoku-era conflict (in which warfare was commonplace, life was cheap, and victory would be achieved in whatever way was necessary). It just doesn't work.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

As for what could constitute as a good "asian" feel, I find it funny that the poster above me specifically mentions Rokugan as disliking it, because I love it. However, despite be mentioning Rokugan, for the love of god, PLEASE do not go overboard on Japan. Yes, Japan is a very popular country, but I'm kinda tired of it now.

If you really want to capture "Oriental Adventures," then lose the orcs and elves. It's not "Western Adventure With Bamboo!" after all. Look at eastern mythology - that stuff can be pretty out there for those that are very used to western mythology. Same with designing classes - don't do it from a western perspective where the cleric/priest is a holy warrior in full armor. If at any point in time the adventurers are fighting dragons in an eastern themed game, something has gone terribly wrong.

Unless they're western styled dragons. Actually, that could be a rather cool plot twist. Those invaders that are "corrupting" the land turn out to be elves. And you'd have to kill them, of course.

Goddamn elves.

 

[CruelSummerLord]

If you really want to capture "Oriental Adventures," then lose the orcs and elves. It's not "Western Adventure With Bamboo!" after all. Look at eastern mythology - that stuff can be pretty out there for those that are very used to western mythology. Same with designing classes - don't do it from a western perspective where the cleric/priest is a holy warrior in full armor. If at any point in time the adventurers are fighting dragons in an eastern themed game, something has gone terribly wrong.

Unless they're western styled dragons. Actually, that could be a rather cool plot twist. Those invaders that are "corrupting" the land turn out to be elves. And you'd have to kill them, of course.

Goddamn elves.

This raises the question-at what point do you alter the game to fit the setting, and the setting to fit the game? As I see it, elves and orcs are spread around the world just as are humans-there is just as much possibly of there being an elven samurai as an elven shaman. To me, D&D without elves and orcs isn't D&D at all-I don't know what it is, but it sure isn't Dungeons and Dragons.

That's just me, of course-as a worldbuilder, I need those demihumans and humanoids spread around the world. That's not to say that they won't be changed in some way or another, while maintaining certain traits in common with their Occidental counterparts, just as humans in an Oriental setting will share certain things with European-inspired humans.

Elves might have a beautiful, intricate warrior culture that inspired humans to develop the samurai as a response. Or perhaps they developed the concept of spell books/scrolls/tomes that allowed humans and others to develop spellcasting.

Plenty of room for Oriental elves.

Or African elves.

Or Middle Eastern elves.

But again, at what point do you change the setting to fit the game, and vice versa?