D&D 5E what is it about 2nd ed that we miss?

[Neonchameleon]

Convenient that luck came back at the same rate that a person healed in 2E.

Do you know what it takes to recover luck?

I am not entirely sure how sixth sense recovery time relates directly to marathon running and on the other hand I do know that genuine athletes do run both ultra marathons and back to back marathons so I imagine that any hit point damage that they take is subdual at best.

All hit point damage is subdual at worst. Otherwise it would actually impede you.

 

[pemerton]

the rationalization EGG had in the 1e DMG was that hp damage that would run a normal person through only scratched the more experienced, higher-hp, fighter, due to skill, luck, 'sixth sense,' &c. So, same blow, same hp damage, completely different wound, same level of Cure Wounds spell required to get those hps back. While that rationalization explained the seeming absurdity of 70 hp humans riding 14 HP warhorses, it created it's own absurdity of non-proportional healing.

I agree that non-proportional healing doesn't make sense. In AD&D, it's a purely mechanical construct.

4e's surge-based healing is (in my view) an important breakthrough in this respect, bringing the logic of recovery into line with the logic of depletion.

And yet your skill, luck, sixth sense etc all regenerated at an absurdly slow pace unless your constitution was high enough. That is a head scratcher for sure.

Well, what's the realistic rate for recovery of skill, luck and sixth sense?

 

[hawkeyefan]

Do you know what it takes to recover luck?

Indeed I do. It's equal parts karmic rejuvenation and flatulence.

 

[Shasarak]

All hit point damage is subdual at worst. Otherwise it would actually impede you.

The body is really good at dealing with injuries so that they do not impede you until the injury overwhelms the bodies natural resilience. Which actually mimics the 0hp and you are out rule really well.

 

[Shasarak]

Well, what's the realistic rate for recovery of skill, luck and sixth sense?

Realistically skill, luck and sixth sense would be part of your defense rather then hit points.

4e's surge-based healing is (in my view) an important breakthrough in this respect, bringing the logic of recovery into line with the logic of depletion.

In my opinion the 5e Hit Dice mechanic are the best representation of recovery and depletion.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

I thought his point was not about the physical constitution/wounds angle, but the luck, skill, sixth sense, combat prowess, etc. intangible ideas that regenerated at the same rate.

The point being if your HP are reflective of more than actual physical injury, then why was recovery based solely on constitution?

Convenient that luck came back at the same rate that a person healed in 2E.

Hit Points aren't the same thing as damage, though, even when you're talking about healing. You could have damage be purely physical, while HP - your capacity to sustain damage without dying - grow by luck and skill and whatnot.

The simplest and most consistent model (though not necessarily the best, depending on personal priorities) is just that 5 damage is 5 damage, regardless of who takes it - it's a direct impact of an arrow upon your armor, converting a defined amount of force into a proportional amount of blunt trauma. Then, the difference between a squishy thief and a stout paladin is the number of those hits that they can take before falling. The thief, being a chump, is knocked out from the second impact; the paladin, being generally tougher and also more experienced at taking a hit, can stay conscious through several such impacts.

Although, from what I recall about 2E, your Constitution score wasn't a factor in recovery time - you always healed just one or two points per day, and Con only factored into how many hits you could take. If it took the paladin twice as long to heal as the thief, then it was only because the paladin had suffered many more injuries, such that equivalent trauma to the thief would have been fatal.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

Realistically skill, luck and sixth sense would be part of your defense rather then hit points.

And it is! At least, it is in 3.x, being the edition which actually tried to model this sort of thing. You could get a Luck bonus to AC without too much effort, and a Luck bonus to saves was an integral part of a core race, but you'd never see a Luck bonus to HP.

Similar arguments could be made for Insight and Competence.

 

[hawkeyefan]

Hit Points aren't the same thing as damage, though, even when you're talking about healing. You could have damage be purely physical, while HP - your capacity to sustain damage without dying - grow by luck and skill and whatnot.

The simplest and most consistent model (though not necessarily the best, depending on personal priorities) is just that 5 damage is 5 damage, regardless of who takes it - it's a direct impact of an arrow upon your armor, converting a defined amount of force into a proportional amount of blunt trauma. Then, the difference between a squishy thief and a stout paladin is the number of those hits that they can take before falling. The thief, being a chump, is knocked out from the second impact; the paladin, being generally tougher and also more experienced at taking a hit, can stay conscious through several such impacts.

Although, from what I recall about 2E, your Constitution score wasn't a factor in recovery time - you always healed just one or two points per day, and Con only factored into how many hits you could take. If it took the paladin twice as long to heal as the thief, then it was only because the paladin had suffered many more injuries, such that equivalent trauma to the thief would have been fatal.

If your constitution was high enough...either 19 or 20, I think, it's been years...then you gained regeneration. That's what I was referring to. So it seems odd that if your Con was high enough you would regenerate. I mean, it makes sense, but only for the physical aspect of what HP supposedly represent. The regeneration wasn't limited to a certain percentage of your overall HP or anything like that. So then the question would be how does your high Con help you regenerate luck and so on?

But I really don't worry about it... I just jumped in to the conversation to clarify what I thought was the point being made.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

If your constitution was high enough...either 19 or 20, I think, it's been years...then you gained regeneration. That's what I was referring to. So it seems odd that if your Con was high enough you would regenerate. I mean, it makes sense, but only for the physical aspect of what HP supposedly represent. The regeneration wasn't limited to a certain percentage of your overall HP or anything like that. So then the question would be how does your high Con help you regenerate luck and so on?

Ah right, that makes sense. I think Con 19 gave you back one point every hour, though I can't recall it ever coming up in any game I played. But yes, the thing you mention is one of the things which points toward all damage including a physical component.

 

[Ancalagon]

Losing hp*does* impede you: Your ability to avoid a killing blow.