What *is* it about paladins that makes people nutty, anyway?

[Sejs]

As has doubtlessly been said already, the problem with paladins really breaks down to:

1) They have a code, the particular details of which are otherwise rather vague and open to interpretation, and ...

2) Failure to adhere to said wonky code results in the character getting screwed out of their abilities, and thus totally sucking.


Add on to that, the fact that somehow SOMEHOW a number of people seem to assume that it's their obligation to make any paladin character in a game they run fall from grace at some point. Like it's required of them. Like it's somehow fun for the player of the paladin to have to jump through hoops just in order to get their class abilities back, all while getting the luxury of no class features and getting to bear the weight of some kind of, probably forced, moral failure.

It's uh pretty dumb, frankly.

 

[ForceUser]

ForceUser,

Please define 'spirituality'.

Thank you.

Ken

To paraphrase a website I will not link here (I'll email any who are curious):

Spirituality speaks to people of many denominations and beliefs. It is thought to include a system of beliefs that encompasses love, compassion and respect for life. Individuals may experience both spirituality and religion very privately within themselves (internally), and/or through social interaction with persons and organizations in an external way. Spirituality is about our existence, relationships with ourselves, others and the universe. It is something we experience and requires abstract thinking and will. Spiritual development provides us with insight and understanding of ourselves and others. The spiritual component of a personality is the dimension or function that integrates all other aspects of personhood…and is often seen as a search for meaning in life.

 

[rounser]

Please define 'spirituality'.

It's a bit like "the funk", or "the Force", or voodoo economics, from what I gather. It doesn't have to make sense, and I don't have to explain it, so it's a very useful word, really.

 

[diaglo]

In my opinion, it is because the Paladin class is, by it's very nature, not a team oriented class. And this is a team oriented game.

ditto.

the old paladin had a CHA which required attention. my way or the highway attitude. also the restrictions on who they could adventure with.

even when the paladin was Lawful and not Good as first presented in Supplement I Greyhawk (1975). they had a code.

the new paladin although restructured carried over many of the things which have plagued the class from the beginning.

it is not a core class. it is a PrC. always has been, always should be. until it is completely reworked.

 

[interwyrm]

But if you are Agnostic, or if you are an Atheist, it is difficult (not IMPOSSIBLE) to role-play someone who is deeply committed to the divine, and especially so if you are roleplaying a class that is by nature prosetlyzistically and militaristically so. Paladins are the Military Missionaries of their faiths.

I think this is true, but only for a subset of agnostics and atheists. There are some who have not only a lack of faith, but a disdain for religion. This is what gets in the way unless a person is willing to really roleplay.

 

[Herremann the Wise]

Hi Everyone,

Some thoughts on why when a Paladin thread starts, it then goes for over ten pages...

In my opinion, it is because the Paladin class is, by it's very nature, not a team oriented class. And this is a team oriented game.

I completely disagree. Paladins are the epitomy of team-oriented,...

and now for the all important qualification

...as long as the team is composed of like-minded team members.

Unfortunately that's a mighty big qualification. It epitomises the "It's my way or it's no way" philosophy that comes up here and there with paladins, knights and other dominant leaders in a group. Unfortunately, unless the PCs involved are buying into a single-dominant PC campaign, such roleplaying while true to a particular ideal will only cause resentment and frustration for the other PCs/players. In reality, Paladins can be played in many different ways. Some are quite team focused while others are me, me, me, me, I, me, me, you?... no me.

And another classic reason why when Paladin threads start, they then go on for so long:

Also, many DMs don't 'get' paladins. All the restrictions those DMs attach to the class are not in the PHB.

Nothing quite like telling people they don't "get" something to get people's backs up.
And on a previous thread in question...

I think paladins are instruments of their god's wrath and have been completely pre-approved to kill anything that is probably evil.

All I will say is that the game is more than just what's in the PHB. People do things differently; play the game in different ways. Does that mean that those DM's don't "get" paladins. Remember the important difference between opinion and fact. Just because people play things differently does not mean that they don't "get" an idea or that they are in a lower category because of it.

And finally, some great wisdom that could at the very least halve the number of paladin threads on this board:

I've always figured that a paladin's code is something the DM and player need to hammer out, at least roughly, before play begins.

Important to cover off right away:
1. Is the paladin obliged to attack anything that shows up as Evil on his radar?
2. What are the 'rules' regarding unconscious/sleeping/surrendered opponents, particularly when there is no way to safely confine them?
3. What are the 'rules' regarding noncombatants of traditionally evil races?
4. Is it okay for the paladin to 'turn a blind eye' to things like torture of prisoners for information if it's in a good cause?
5. Is it 'dishonourable' to use stealth or disguises, attack without warning, lie as a 'ruse of war', etc?
6. Can a minor evil be ignored in pursuit of a greater evil? (Is it okay to let the mugging in the dark alley continue, if intervening would mean letting the demon lord escape?)

Other things that might be worth addressing are attitudes to sex and alcohol, tolerance for other religions, tithing, and the like.

These can be fleshed out further if unexpected situations arise in game, but having at least those initial contentious points fleshed out in advance will help to avoid unpleasant surprises where expectations don't mesh.

I could see a very simple Paladin's code boiled down to 'What would Benton do?'

Thank you very much Hypersmurf.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[Dwarf Bread]

It is impossible to accurately roleplay a character of faith if one does not have an understanding of, appreciation for, or resevoir of faith and/or spirituality in real life.

There. I said it. Those folks who are paladin-haters--for years I've read your threads, I've considered your comments, and I've decided that you have no clue what role-playing a spiritual person entails. How can you? By your comments I can tell that many of you have little or no understanding of actual spirituality in your own lives.QUOTE]

This appears to be a double-barreled assertion that lumps people who don't play characters of faith "accurately" (whatever that means) with people who dislike the class or how it is played.

You also may be overgeneralizing, depending on how you define "paladin-haters." Some people argue that there are players who seem to enjoy the control they exhibit over the behavior of a group when they play paladins. Does this point of view make one a paladin-hater? Can you tell how spiritual a person is if they believe this to be the case? How do you define "spiritual"?

It's also a circular argument:

"Why can't people play paladins?" "Because they aren't spiritual."
"How can you tell they aren't spiritual?" "Because they don't like paladins."

If people who aren't spiritual can't possibly roleplay a spiritual person, how do you explain that people are able to roleplay violent, homicidal characters, even if they've never engaged in violence, much less killed anyone? How can any of us possibly play a character who uses magic, since none of us can even remotely begin to understand what that would be like? Should I lock up my belongings if one of my friends plays a rogue, or is it more reasonable to believe that we are capable of adopting beliefs and behaviors we have never personally experienced when we roleplay?

 

[Dwarf Bread]

Spirituality speaks to people of many denominations and beliefs. It is thought to include a system of beliefs that encompasses love, compassion and respect for life.

Oh, so people who don't like paladins have no system of belief that encompasses love, compassion and respect for life?

Yeah, you're probably right. My bad.

 

[rounser]

I think this is true, but only for a subset of agnostics and atheists. There are some who have not only a lack of faith, but a disdain for religion. This is what gets in the way unless a person is willing to really roleplay.

To play Asmodeus's advocate for a moment, I'd suggest that agnostics and atheists are perhaps better able to roleplay paladins than religious folks, because they're less likely to confuse fantasy "spirituality" of a character with real world, personal beliefs and their internal moral compass based on that (which is what I think the word spirituality is an allusion to - and you're right, I'm not spiritual, I lack an internal moral compass based on your beliefs....but that doesn't mean that I lack an internal moral compass of my own).

No matter what your belief system, the world of the paladin is alien to our own.

 

[Nightfall]

I think it's because we live in an amoral society and thus people think alignments are too 'hangup"ie to be useful. Same is true but when you're LG and you get powers, people are always looking to take you down a notch.