What *is* it about paladins that makes people nutty, anyway?

[Agemegos]

What do people have against paladins, anyway?

The problem with paladins is that they are the only core class of which the rules encourage the DM to meddle with the character-player's prerogatives. If DM would recognise that teh stuff about paladin codes and paladin alignment restrictions are the game designers talking directly to the players, DMs might stay on their own proper side of the screen, and most of the paladin problems would go away.

Never going to happen, though.

Another problem with paladins is that their requirement to be Good forces emphasis onto a highly emotive issue that people have been arguing about for 2,500 years without making any progress: "what is Good?" "what's a bloke to do?".

 

[Crimhthan_The_Great]

The problem is actually cultural.

The truth is that Paladins are the only character class that are built around the idea that there is an absolute of right and wrong, good and evil.

The modern west is becoming a relativistic society. Generally truth in the society is becoming a personal thing. According to this way of thinking what may be true for me is not true for you. There is the idea that there really is no evil, its just a matter of perspective and opinion, or that there is evil but it is really rare and everything else is just a matter of perspective and opinion.

The paladin as a character class introduces a character that believes that there is only one truth and that evil is real. The values of the paladin are not relativistic. And that is why we have a big problem integrating the concept of it into the relativistic world view that most people seem to have and base their campaigns around.

This is an excellent point. The truth is there is an absolute right and wrong, good and evil. No one that denies this can be taken seriously, since it is the fundamental rule 0 of our universe. The majority of people in the world embrace a relativistic world view, and subscribe to the view that there really is no evil, it is just a matter of perspective and opinion. The reason that these people get upset with paladins or anyone that views the world as black and white, with very little gray is that deep down they know that their world view is wrong and they hate anything that reminds them that they are living a lie. For example if you view the world as good vs evil, you have no problem with a minimum sentence of life with no possiblity of parole for child molesters and a maximum sentence of death by slow torture for the very worst ones(such as the ones that prey on small children). But if you embrace a relativistic world view, then you support light sentences, pretend that they can be rehabilitated (not possible) and in general make excuses for them. Just look at the laws around the country and you can see that the relativisitic world view dominates. People hate paladins, because it reminds them that they are not good people themselves and that they have a wrong world view. Those that love paladins make up that tiny tiny tiny tiny tiny fraction of people that are lawful good in real life or at least are striving to be. In real life people that are neutral with minor good tendencies are about as good as it gets. The majority are neutral with evil tendencies.

 

[WayneLigon]

This is an excellent point. The truth is there is an absolute right and wrong, good and evil. No one that denies this can be taken seriously, since it is the fundamental rule 0 of our universe.

Um, it's a fundamental rule of most D&D universes, not ours. I certainly do deny that any such thing exists in our real world, but happily accept it as a staple of heroic fantasy.

In real life people that are neutral with minor good tendencies are about as good as it gets. The majority are neutral with evil tendencies.

Er, no.

 

[Brazeku]

This is an excellent point. The truth is there is an absolute right and wrong, good and evil. No one that denies this can be taken seriously, since it is the fundamental rule 0 of our universe. The majority of people in the world embrace a relativistic world view, and subscribe to the view that there really is no evil, it is just a matter of perspective and opinion. The reason that these people get upset with paladins or anyone that views the world as black and white, with very little gray is that deep down they know that their world view is wrong and they hate anything that reminds them that they are living a lie. For example if you view the world as good vs evil, you have no problem with a minimum sentence of life with no possiblity of parole for child molesters and a maximum sentence of death by slow torture for the very worst ones(such as the ones that prey on small children). But if you embrace a relativistic world view, then you support light sentences, pretend that they can be rehabilitated (not possible) and in general make excuses for them. Just look at the laws around the country and you can see that the relativisitic world view dominates. People hate paladins, because it reminds them that they are not good people themselves and that they have a wrong world view. Those that love paladins make up that tiny tiny tiny tiny tiny fraction of people that are lawful good in real life or at least are striving to be. In real life people that are neutral with minor good tendencies are about as good as it gets. The majority are neutral with evil tendencies.

If some people are inherently bad and cannot be rehabilitated, do they have a capacity for choice? If not, is it just to kill somebody who had no choice in their actions?

 

[hong]

The wonders of Ritalin.

 

[the Jester]

This is an excellent point. The truth is there is an absolute right and wrong, good and evil. No one that denies this can be taken seriously, since it is the fundamental rule 0 of our universe.

Wow, I think you just insulted half of the people on here.

Perhaps you should add "in my opinion" or something to your post. Or offer objective proof of an absolute right and wrong.

For example if you view the world as good vs evil, you have no problem with a minimum sentence of life with no possiblity of parole for child molesters and a maximum sentence of death by slow torture for the very worst ones(such as the ones that prey on small children). But if you embrace a relativistic world view, then you support light sentences, pretend that they can be rehabilitated (not possible) and in general make excuses for them.

Wow. Just... wow.

Even assuming that I agree that there is an absolute right and wrong, I don't necessarily agree with your idea of what the rightful punishment is. A lot of people recognize that human justice systems make errors, and the death penalty leads to the death of many innocent people... but I'm not going to go there, politics and stuff. Post reported.

 

[the Jester]

The wonders of Ritalin.

hong, stick to lighter drugs, like weed, coke or heroin.

 

[Hussar]

It's been some time since I wrote what I did above, but, honestly, I still stand by it.

IMHO, one of the major problems is that people want the Code to cover all possibilities. For some, the idea of ambushing paladins is problematic, for others, not so much. I don't think that the rules are the place to make that determination. That should be done with the DM and the players. They should sit down together and come up with a framework that they can both agree on.

As a side note, I believe the same should be done for clerics and druids as well.

You can never really come up with a code that will cover all eventualities in all games. The best you can really do is give some rough idea of where to start.

((BTW, totally NOT giving in to saying anything about the bizarre above post))

 

[Griffith Dragonlake]

People hate paladins, because it reminds them that they are not good people themselves and that they have a wrong world view. Those that love paladins make up that tiny tiny tiny tiny tiny fraction of people that are lawful good in real life or at least are striving to be. In real life people that are neutral with minor good tendencies are about as good as it gets. The majority are neutral with evil tendencies.

I don't know if I'm in the minority or not, but the above has been my experience in almost 30 years of D&D. I've never met a paladin hater that I would describe as LG in real life. In fact I truly wish that this hadn't been my experience. I've had to deal with too many players (not characters but players) with strong Evil tendencies. It is not my idea of fun at all.

 

[Crimhthan_The_Great]

If some people are inherently bad and cannot be rehabilitated, do they have a capacity for choice? If not, is it just to kill somebody who had no choice in their actions?

All people are inherently bad, some strive to rise above it and some don't. Some travel the path of evil past the point of no return and anyone that molests children has passed the point of no return by the time they have reached the point where they take action on those perverted desires.