AllisterH said:
1. Technik and Nail, you're pretty much the only ones I've seen insist casters are not overpowered.
The Druid, Cleric and Wizard are still considered the "most powerful classes" in the game by pretty much everyone and that's just core. Hell, until Eberron's release of the Planar Shepherd prestige class, the most powerful build was straight druid to level 20.
'Pretty much everyone' is very vague. People like to vote and see that they voted correctly. If you put a poll of 'Most Powerful Class' on the general board, you would get a lot of druid, wizard, and cleric responses.
That does not mean it is necessarily true. It is just popular opinion. A few hundred years ago, it was popular opinion that the world was flat. Most people did not bother to find out whether or not it was true, they 'learned' the 'truth' and that was fine. Most people accept that those are the most powerful classes without anecdotal evidence. They might see an example of what a Wizard X or Druid X could do, with a certain combination of spells/feats and then they would conclude that the class is the most powerful (along with an avalanche of votes in favor of those classes).
The classes do not exist in a vacuum. They should not be evaluated against each other, or even necessarily side-by-side because it is always a group of adventurers overcoming challenges, not mortal kombat-style duels (generally speaking). The cleric can wear heavy armor, heal, and attack very well. That does not make him better than a fighter, or slightly inferior to a druid who could potentially wildshape into a fearsome animal and attack better than the cleric.
2. Roleplaying restrictions - I would agree with that except this is campaign dependant and frankly, on these boards and others, how many times have we seen a discussion on paladins and their code compared to clerics? It really is sad but true, that you can get away with much more as a cleric of Pelor than a paladin of Pelor. So trying to argue that clerics are restricted by their code is laughably weak given how little we see of that on this self same board.
Maybe
you can get away with much more, but I don't think it's fair to speak for everyone else playing d&d. The discussions on this board are NOT an accurate demographic of the majority of d&d games. In the first place, the sample size is way too small, in the other, by its nature, it appeals to a certain type of player (who is not representative of the majority of gamers playing d&d).
My argument was not that clerics are restricted by their code (and alignment), merely that they can (and should) be restricted. Clerics generally fit into a structure, be it a church, monastery, or loose-knit group of believers and they each have a list of goals and probably things they would never do (or would have to apologize if one of their members did so). No, not ALL clerics fit that mold, but generally the gods with the good domains have some kind of power structure in the world.
Whether your group restricts clerics is irrelevant. The rules are there (implied instead of written in large bold letters with 'Prerequisite' and 'Normal' afterwards).
3. The warlock is actually considered slightly underpowered when compared to any of the other arcane wielders. I'm not sure where you get the idea that the warlock is "STRONG". Same thing with the duskblade when compared to a standard gish using just the DMG and PHB.
The Warlock is situationally stronger than any magical class printed before it. That is an example of power creep. Personally, I don't have a huge problem playing with the class, but it is a very good example of how things are creeping up in power. In earlier editions arcane casters had 1 spell and some cantrips at 1st level and progressed slowly. These days you can play a low-level warlock and zap things until you pass out from exhaustion.
4. Actually, here's where your wrong. Pretty much all of the straight base class casters released over the years have been weaker than the original big 3. Dread Necromancer, Warmage, Beguiler, Favoured Soul, Spirit Shaman, Wu-jen etc. They are better in that they have fewer dead levels and actually encourage you to stay single class unlike the wizard and cleric.
You cited the War
blade, not any of those other classes. From what I understand the WarBlade can easily re-ready his maneuvers in the middle of combat and has many maneuvers which quickly out-pace what a fighter of an equivalent level could do. That is an example of power creep.
5. You're basically saying "Magic isn't that bad as long as you change the rules". Horrendous argument IMHO.
No, I'm saying there are many rules that are implied, not specifically called out as rules, in both the PHB and the DMG which many people (especially on these boards) seem to ignore. Also, the DM is the final authority of what is powerful in his game. If a DM has a problem with a character always stealing the show, there are many avenues he can take to knock a character down a notch (which is a good thing, if it is done for the benefit of the group instead of capricious whim).
6. Power Creep is inevitable with options.
No it isn't. If every prestige class printed with casters in mind had dead levels, levels without spell-casting acquisition, and in some cases lower BAB, HD, and saves (mostly Cleric PrCs) you could have options without an overall increase in power. Similarly, if most of the prestige classes had been printed at a medium BAB, classes like Fighter and Barbarian would still look 'powerful' and there would not be power creep (just, 'options creep').
That said, I'm not sure why anyone thinks this is a bad thing..
There is, at the end of the day, little wrong with power creep. Some groups want to create sultans of smack with comical or loose backgrounds and beat up monsters and win treasure. The rules let you do so. The mistake comes from reading about their experiences and thinking that is the universal experience shared by everyone playing the game.
It is not.
The game is very modular and moddable and can work on many different levels. Some people have probably never seen an overpowered cleric, druid, or wizard (and never will). Those same people may hold the fighter or barbarian in high regard, and releasing a book like Tome of Battle would cause them to immediately think that the game is creeping forward in power (and they would be right).
