D&D General What is player agency to you?

[Oofta]

I know the rules of the game quite well. In your example, what was the player changing? It sounds like they were telling the group what their PC remembered.

The fiction of the world did not exist before the player declared it. If they had not made their lore check something would have still been there.

If that's not changing the world, I don't know what is. I can't just "remember" how much money I have in the bank.

 

[pemerton]

The fiction of the world did not exist before the player declared it. If they had not made their lore check something would have still been there.

If that's not changing the world, I don't know what is. I can't just "remember" how much money I have in the bank.

What do you mean something would still have been there? And in what way has the player changed that?

Or do you mean, if the player didn't make up what it is that their PC remembers, then the GM would have? That seems pretty relevant to the issue of player agency!

 

[DEFCON 1]

From casually following along, it appears to me the "changing of reality" comes down to what people are defining as "reality" in the first place.

Some people seem to be saying that only things that have been declared is actually "real". That's the reality the characters are in. If the DM has not specifically made mention of a blacksmith in town, then the "reality" of the situation is that a blacksmith in town doesn't exist (yet.) If and when the DM OR a player makes mention of "going to see the blacksmith"... the "reality" is being ALTERED from a world where there was no blacksmith in this town to one where there is.

The other side being those folks here who are reading the idea of the change of the "game's reality" to be more about CONTRADICTING something having already been established. Adding something new that had not yet been defined is not "changing" by their way of thinking... but rather deciding by fiat that something that had been defined one way is now something different is "changing".

Until everyone is willing to accept either definition as the "correct" one for this discussion... there will never be agreement.

Is going from nothing to something a "changing of the game's reality" or is only something becoming something else a "changing of the game's reality"? Decide on that definition first and the discussion can probably continue on its course.

 

[FrozenNorth]

Though altering the game reality can be pretty rad.

You mean, like the wish spell?

 

[DEFCON 1]

You mean, like the wish spell?

When both the player and the DM can be mature about what can and cannot be changed in the game so that the campaign can continue (and not destroy the social contract of the table)... absolutely!

 

[FrozenNorth]

If the player is given authorial power to establish a prior event or detail for the purpose of gaining an advantage in the games present - (whether that's via PC memory or other means), then that is very much what it meant by 'altering the games reality'. Further, while 'PC memory' can be argued to be part of the PC, the details in the memory are very much outside the PC - making the addition of those details a change outside the PC.

That definition seems to imply that when a GM uses authorial power to establish a prior event or detail, than the GM is “altering the games’ reality”. Is that your intent?

 

[Oofta]

What do you mean something would still have been there? And in what way has the player changed that?

Or do you mean, if the player didn't make up what it is that their PC remembers, then the GM would have? That seems pretty relevant to the issue of player agency!

We have very different definitions of the player redefining the fiction of the world. In D&D, if the player makes a knowledge check, the DM gets to decide the details of what is remembered. The player remembers what's in the tower? Okay. The DM tells them what they remember. It's a totally different approach. I prefer the way D&D does it but that's not relevant to the fact that the player is making changes to the fiction of the world. We do that to a small degree in D&D when it comes to fluff and inconsequential details about their player such as hair color or general details about their clothes. But while they can say their PC has red hair, in most games if they want to be wearing fine clothes they have to pay that extra 10 GP for them at least at low levels.

Or taking the BitD example from @FrogReaver of having the right equipment, my PC can't decide they have a thieves tool kit if it wasn't previously established they had them. It's not much different from me just "remembering" that I have enough money in the bank to make the car payment.

 

[FrogReaver]

That definition seems to imply that when a GM uses authorial power to establish a prior event or detail, than the GM is “altering the games’ reality”. Is that your intent?

I think it would normally be called railroading if the GM used his authorial power to establish a prior event or detail with the purpose of disadvantaging the players in the present scene.

And yes railroading is one form of altering the games reality.

 

[jmartkdr2]

That definition seems to imply that when a GM uses authorial power to establish a prior event or detail, than the GM is “altering the games’ reality”. Is that your intent?

I would agree that the dm is altering the reality of the game - but I would also say that's a core part of their role at the table.

 

[CreamCloud0]

Hence, I still don't see the difference between Conan having a backstory that includes Thulsa Doom and Thulsa Doom reappearing later as an opponent without Conan specifically seeking him out and a DM adding spice to the ongoing situation by developing a connection between a current threat the party has taken interest in and the bad things that have happened to one or more characters in their past. It is, from Conan's perspective, pure coincidence that Thulsa has chosen to become a priest of Set

it is in fact the third possibility that we are primarily caught up on of Conan being able to point at 'random Set priest #6' and declare "that's them, that's Thulsa Doom, i know Thulsa Doom from my backstory and i know they have XYZ traits" and thus Priest #6 becomes Thulsa Doom with XYZ traits.

Priest #6 becoming Thulsa or the contents of the room being what the player 'remembers', they're the same as Oofta's example, you can't 'remember' money into your bank account because there should already be a certain amount of money in your account, even if you don't know how much that is.