What is so good about Knight of the Sacred Seal?

[Ragmon]

Hey guys.

So I have been playing a Binder every now and then, and when I read the online handbooks about it all of 'em say the Knight of the Sacred Seal is a must as soon as possible.

Why is that could some one explain? Cause I don't see anything really useful for me, Good BAB, pack augmentations counter the BAB loss in a way, and the saves are better on the binder, d10 HP is nice but not a big loss.

So what is the big deal about it? Is it the Outsider [Native] thing?

I could use some insight into the situation.

 

[TwoSix]

4 levels of a full BAB class plus 16 levels of binder BAB progression give you the magical +16 BAB at level 20, which is a holy grail for CharOpers. Overhyping 20th level builds to the exclusion of the other levels is a primary flaw of CharOp.

That being said, it's a good PrC, as you don't lose binder advancement at all, and you only lose one pact augmentation.

 

[Ragmon]

4 levels of a full BAB class plus 16 levels of binder BAB progression give you the magical +16 BAB at level 20, which is a holy grail for CharOpers. Overhyping 20th level builds to the exclusion of the other levels is a primary flaw of CharOp.

That being said, it's a good PrC, as you don't lose binder advancement at all, and you only lose one pact augmentation.

So its about the BAB? I find this rather interesting, since I don't view the binder as a "attack oriented" character, more like a "having the right stuff at the right time" kind of class. But oh well to every one there own character views I guess.

I just have to say, yea you don't lose much in Binder progression, but you forfeit some stuff like (if you take KoSS, lets say 4 levels at level 20):
- 1 bonus feat
- 1 pact augmentation
- 1 soul guardian (mind blank)
- And at level 20 Binder your just 1 BAB away from the KoSS version.

Is it really worth it, wasting a feat and basically perma binding a vestige, for that 1 additional attack, and slight HP increase?

 

[TwoSix]

- And at level 20 Binder your just 1 BAB away from the KoSS version.

Is it really worth it, wasting a feat and basically perma binding a vestige, for that 1 additional attack, and slight HP increase?

One thing to keep in mind is that your BAB can never increase after 20. So if you have a +15, like a Binder 20, you'll never get that fourth attack.

Does it matter? I don't think so. It's a good PrC, but it has tradeoffs. As long as you have full binder progression, it really is a trivial difference. It's not a situation where there's no reason not to PrC like the 3.5 sorcerer or cleric.

 

[Ragmon]

One thing to keep in mind is that your BAB can never increase after 20. So if you have a +15, like a Binder 20, you'll never get that fourth attack.

Does it matter? I don't think so. It's a good PrC, but it has tradeoffs. As long as you have full binder progression, it really is a trivial difference. It's not a situation where there's no reason not to PrC like the 3.5 sorcerer or cleric.

Hmm, interesting, is 1 attack a good trade-off for immunity against mind-effecting spells and abilities and 1 pact augmentation and a class specific feat?

"It's not a situation where there's no reason not to PrC like the 3.5 sorcerer or cleric"
I would just like to point out that, the thread is about the handbooks on the net, stating that it is a must to take KoSS. Makes me feel like the PrC is an upgrade and not a side-grade into some specialization, where as I don't see any real advantage of taking the PrC.
Especially at high levels that +1 Attack is not a real advantage, as experienced at high levels D&D turns into more of a problem solving game then just number combat (but hey, that just might be my DMs).

Oh and I'm fine with the answer if its "just for the BAB" (even tho I don't see the appeal of it).

 

[TwoSix]

Hmm, interesting, is 1 attack a good trade-off for immunity against mind-effecting spells and abilities and 1 pact augmentation and a class specific feat?

"It's not a situation where there's no reason not to PrC like the 3.5 sorcerer or cleric"
I would just like to point out that, the thread is about the handbooks on the net, stating that it is a must to take KoSS. Makes me feel like the PrC is an upgrade and not a side-grade into some specialization, where as I don't see any real advantage of taking the PrC.
Especially at high levels that +1 Attack is not a real advantage, as experienced at high levels D&D turns into more of a problem solving game then just number combat (but hey, that just might be my DMs).

Oh and I'm fine with the answer if its "just for the BAB" (even tho I don't see the appeal of it).

I wouldn't do it, unless I had a vestige I really liked to use. But yes, the reason it's in the guides is the BAB.

 

[Ragmon]

I wouldn't do it, unless I had a vestige I really liked to use. But yes, the reason it's in the guides is the BAB.

Oh ok then.

I would take the PrC if it had different class abilities, I don't like the "gain +X for 1 round" feel unimaginative.

 

[the Jester]

One thing to bear in mind about that fourth attack is that it often won't hit a high-AC enemry anyhow, at least unless you really focus on boosting your attacks.

 

[Savage Wombat]

One thing to bear in mind about that fourth attack is that it often won't hit a high-AC enemry anyhow, at least unless you really focus on boosting your attacks.

Ah, but this is CharOp we're talking about. Clearly you're supposed to be conjuring up a +30 to hit, or making your attacks against Touch AC. Every round.

 

[TKDB]

The BAB isn't just good for getting that fourth attack by level 20. A binder's role in combat is mainly that of a secondary beater, and they can be pretty good at it too. (I've tried playing it as an arcane caster sort of role, and even with an obscure feat to get UMD as a class skill it was still pretty rough in combat.) Since pact augs are fairly spaced out, going into KotSS gives you an immediate boost in offense that can pay off even in the middle of a campaign.

The outsider type change is good, but generally not that important unless your DM doesn't allow Zceryll. If you are allowed to use Zceryll, odds are you're going to be binding her more often than not, because holy BALLS is she fantastic, and among the fantastic things she gives you is the pseudonatural template. Which makes you an outsider. Along with DR, SR, elemental resistances, 1/day True Strike, and an alternate form. And then on top of that you also get telepathy, mindsight, dazing rays, bonuses to saves against mind-affecting stuff, and, oh yeah, summons. All of the summons.

Zceryll is a little OP. But I digress.

Becoming an outsider, kind of nifty. But the main thing you want to get level 5 of KotSS for is the vestige's surge. Once per day, ignore the cooldown for one of your patron's once-per-5-rounds abilities.

This is HUGE. Seriously, I don't get how you can have played binders before and not realize how great that is. Even though it is just 1/day, that means in those crisis situations where you really, really, REALLY need to use that ability again RIGHT THE HELL NOW...you actually can.

That said, it's probably not quite such a no-brainer as the charop folks say. Losing out on mind blank is kind of meh (few campaigns run that long in the first place, and you can get continuous mind blank much, much earlier by binding Haures, whose other granted powers are pretty nifty as well), but delaying your access to the immunity to energy drain and negative levels (or losing it entirely, depending on when the campaign ends) can really hurt. As can, believe it or not, delaying or losing a bonus feat. Binders are a little feat starved, and sometimes a bonus feat, even from that very limited list binders get, can be rather nice. And if you're not too big on the attacking stuff, delaying/losing a pact augmentation can be bad too, given that augmentations can be used for more than just attack.

All in all, I'd say the charop folks put a little too much weight on the full BAB and cooldown ignoring. It's a very solid PrC, but not exactly the no-brainer it's touted to be. Really depends on your campaign and playstyle.