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What "IS" the Dungeons & Dragons Brand?

Is it the system or the setting that makes a game D&D?

  • System

    Votes: 68 81.9%
  • Setting

    Votes: 15 18.1%

  • Poll closed .

cwhs01

First Post
DragonLancer said:
Absolutely. This is one of those major concerns I have for 4E. When you take away or mess with certain core traits - the "Sacred Cows" - you effectively change the very nature of the beast. From what I have read on these forums 4E isn't D&D, its something else.

so?

I want to play a good, fast and fun fantasy roleplaying game. its irrelevant what its called or what relations it has to older editions...
caveat ofcourse is that if editions arent to different, old material can be salvaged for use with newer editions. i guess that a lot of material will be difficult to transpose. but things were lifted from earlier editions for use with 3e, so its probably not impossible.

imo wotc can keep on butchering all the cows they need, sacred or not, to achieve the goal of creating a good rpg.
call it dungeons and dragons or generichighfantasyroleplayinggame. if it works and is fun to play, it works and is fun to play.
 

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boerngrim

Explorer
Calico_Jack73 said:
Is it the system or the setting?

The reason I ask this is due to 4E and some of the changes rumored though this is not a 4E thread.

1) System - If D&D is the system then at what point is the system sold by WOTC no longer D&D. There has been a lot of talk of slaying several "sacred cows" but by doing so wouldn't that make the game "NOT" D&D? IMHO the alignment system, the magic system, and the classes are all things that make the game D&D. Lose those components and I might as well be playing Palladium, Rolemaster, or any number of other fantasy RPGs because the game isn't D&D anymore.

2) Setting - I think this is the weaker option but it is still somewhat valid. If someone is playing in a game in a setting published by WOTC is it then a D&D game? If a group plays Forgotten Realms, Eberron, or Greyhawk and they use a different system is it still a D&D game? What about if they play something from a third party publisher?

What do you think?
Having not played 4e, going by the previews and snippets we've seen, it does seem that there are so many changes to the system and the setting that it really feels like a different game to me. I think of it as Hasbro Fantasy Roleplay 1st edition.
Thanks.
 


DrunkonDuty

he/him
What is Brand? Big question really. CharlesRyan, Griffith Dragonlake and Delta have all touched upon it. I'd go with what they say.

And I do mean a big question: there's whole marketing degrees out there that try to answer this question. None of them have yet managed to get the essence of Brand quite worked out. Nor do I think they ever will. It's been a long time since I did any marketing (it was related to my TV studies and so I did a little back in the olden days) so please forgive the vagueness of the following.

It is most definitely a system of individuals identifying with a certain thing (idea, concept, collection of icons, shared experience and many more) in a way that gives fulfilment (again a nebulous concept that can vary greatly from person to person and situation to situation) to those individuals. Brand is a concept that exists in the minds of those who wish to partake in the Brand and is, I believe, unique to each individual. As an example, just look at the answers to the thread above. Brand exists in the interaction between the owners/sellers of the brand and the the buyers of the brand. ALthough perhaps better words would be Evangelists of a brand and Followers of a brand.

The real question marketers want answered is "In what way do people interact with Brand?" Because of course if they know "How" they can then manipulate the market. This will never happen, there is no magic bullet, no simple answer to the question.

One thing that makes Brand so hard to pin down is the fact that the system feeds back into itself in an intelligent way. It reacts to itself then reacts to those reactions. I'm no expert in Chaos theory (understatement) but isn't this going into that sort of area? And doesn't that make it kinda hard to predict? Oh, you can predict general trends. But it can be very hard to predict the results of a major change or even small changes over time.

Brand can take on a life of its own that goes well beyond the mere ownership of the logo/intellectual property et. al. Just look at the New Coke debacle of a few years ago. Sure Coca Cola Company own all the plants, the recipe, the logo, the trademarks and what-not. But they better not try to change the thing itself. (Well, not again.) Because an inescapable part of the coke brand is the taste of the thing. But people didn't just complain about the changing flavour. One heard things like: "It's what I grew up with." "How can they change something that so many people have loved for so long?" I paraphrase but that was the gist of many anti-New Coke activists. It was shared experience and the associations that came with it.

This is one of those object lessons that must be making the folks at WoTC nervous. Are they gonna get a New Coke? I'd say probably not. A major difference that I can see is that they are letting the market take part in the decision making. Or at least believe they are. They are using much more subtle forms of marketing: that whole "viral" thing that is very trendy in marketing circles. From memory Coke didn't do any of this (viral marketing was only in its infancy back then, relegated to bands, edge theatre, anything involving students,that sort of thing.) The Lords of Coke just handed down a Pronouncement and expected everyone to go along with it.

What is the DnD brand to me? (hey, I got around to it at last!) There's a generic component, not limited to those products that sport the DnD name/logos. Rolling dice, telling bad jokes and generally hanging out with my friends. It is also the memory of experiences shared with friends. Memories dating back to the early 80's for me. There are also specific tropes that I expect from a DnD game (as opposed to, f'rinstance, a Supers game.)

Tankschmdit listed many of them:

1. Strong archetypical characters working together: at minimum fighting man, magic user, and cleric are necessary.
2. Vancian magic and spell levels.
3. Armor reducing chance to be hit, as opposed to absorbing damage. Armor options must include at minimum: unarmored, leather, chain, plate, and shield with any of the above.
4. Divine magic separate from arcane magic.
5. Alignment, whether it be one axis or two.
6. Six ability scores, typically rolled on 3d6.
7. Silliness inherent in many monsters: owlbears, gelatinous cubes, the bullette, the rust monster.
8. Class based and level based.
9. Hit dice, which will cap at name level or the equivalent.
10. Races include at least human, dwarf, elf, and halfling. Races need not be separate from classes.
11. Flavor of the rules based heavily on early to middle 20th century sword and sorcery and high fantasy writing.
12. D&D is organic; if you leave out a couple of these, you can still argue you are playing D&D.

I'd say I could miss many of these and still feel I was in DnD. I could probably miss all of them and say I was still in DnD. Why? Not exactly sure but as each new edition has grown from a previous in a recognisable way. Just like I'm still me despite bearing little resemblance to the small squalling thing my mum brought home from the hospital all those years ago. Everything has changed but I'm still me.

So maybe continuity is the thing. Although this is isn't a necessary condition, otherwise there could be no new brands.

just some ideas.

cheers all.
 

cwhs01

First Post
SuStel said:
Good! Wanna play some GURPS?

I would love to if it was:
1) better than 3e dnd at doing heroic high fantasy
2) faster during play than 3e dnd
3) easier to gm than 3e dnd

it isn't, so i'll have to use some other system to meet these goals.
4e may be better than 3e dnd (noone really knows yet). if it is a better system, ie. faster, smoother and easier to handle at all levels, i'll use it. Sacred cows are irrelevant. The "feel" of the ruleset is irrelevant.

Its about using the best tool for the job. And the job is to have fun with a cinematic heroic high fantasy roleplaying game.
I don't care what system im using to achieve this.
 

00Machado

First Post
I'd say the "D&D brand" is a recognizeable name they can slap on things that causes me to understand some basics of what's in there - i.e. because they can say "D&D" and get some mind share from me, D&D is a brand, and in this case, the brand.

D&D rulebooks - are branded items. While I can't look at new rulebooks and know all that they can contain, I know they probably have a D&D logo, magic missile, dragons, illithids, clerics, etc. Those are all iconic (and in some cases Trademarked) elements, that have mind share.

D&D miniatures packs - are also branded items. I know they will also likely have the logo, rules for playing, mind flayers, etc. I will also recognize it's a different game with some similar elements. But if it was a wholly different set of rules, it could still be the same brand. If magic missile existed, but worked totally differently than the RPG, it could still be D&D (in my opinion) because it met my expectation that magic missile be present, for example.

D&D cardboard tiles - also branded, but in some cases, don't have much to tie the mind share to except the logo on the cover.

But considering I would not balk that any of the above three products were "D&D products", I have to rule out that the brand is the rules, the setting, or anything I can hold in my hand. The brand, in the case of D&D, is the imagery that hearing the name calls to mind, that mind share. Actually, as I type this, I think I would summarize it succinctly as say that the D&D brand is the name "D&D". Stick it on something, and I have some assumptions and expectations about it. The assumptions and expectations though aren't the brand. They're the emotional drivers they hope to capitalize on with their brand. The brand is the tool they have that makes me think of their product, the experiences their selling, and even enables me to ask at the store for what they're selling so I can buy some. So, I stand by the D&D brand is the name.
 

Stone Dog

Adventurer
cwhs01 said:
I would love to if it was:
1) better than 3e dnd at doing heroic high fantasy
Hrm, I've never tried. Maybe that will have to be my next GURPS game, just to test out that theory.

2) faster during play than 3e dnd
Yeah, I'd have to say that GURPS has this one. Not as fast to start up, but GURPS has always run pretty swiftly compared to 3rd. I'm pretty much a "roll and shout" sort of gamer, so GURPS runs better for me than 3rd.

3) easier to gm than 3e dnd
Hells yes. Of course, I don't run it with all the switches flipped, but still it does wonders for me.
 

howandwhy99

Adventurer
Dungeons & Dragons is Mr. Gary Gygax. From about 1973 to 1985 it was not so much a game as a piece of art, a design and a writing style, and the way in which he ran his games - a storytelling raconteur with a penchant for grand gestures. The infusion of himself into the game made it more than another bland set of game rules. The class and race choices, the shades of chaos versus law, the inspiration of Jack Vance for the magic system, the baroque vocabulary, the wry and campy humor, the need for heroism and caution, the giddiness of expectatation. The phenomenon of fantasy roleplaying, its' early tabletop success, may have been larger than D&D. But the body of D&D, the work of it, its' flavor and description, its' design decisions, its' worlds and adventures, almost all come from the imagination of one person. Sure, it's a beg, borrow, and steal of fantasy authors and some non-fantasy authors from all over the grid of 1970s culture. But no matter the source, every one's inclusion in the game was from a singular personal taste.

D&D stopped being D&D when Mr. Gygax left TSR. That was the predominant opinion when it happened and second edition AD&D was announced and still my own opinion today. Sure the game and some of the rules continue on with a smaller and smaller portion of him in them, but this seems only necessary to broaden the audience. I do not believe any one person's preference for fantasy roleplay is the "right way to play", but Dungeon and Dragons is not only the current published game. Or the holder of the trademark. Or a particular version of the system. Or a particular playstyle thereof. It is a long standing community of players and fans who have enjoyed some portion, if not all, of the legacy of gaming from one man.

I do not mean to be overly histrionic. There have been problems with the game, with the people involved, and the history of the early company. What rises above these human errancies and others unmentioned is the nature of the community. The RPGers I know are an inclusive bunch. We have our differences to be sure, but at the gaming table we set aside real world quarrels and come together. It is a cooperation game in the end. And from D&D we gain a taste of adventure, of challenge, enjoyment, and a little bit of edification.

We might disagree on what particulars, a rule or a setting element, are or aren't explicitly embodied by Dungeons & Dragons. I know I disagree with many of the current positionings. But I believe the communal spirit that is D&D still exists and should very much still continue to exist. That's the Dungeons & Dragons brand in my opinion.
 


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