D&D 4E What is the spirit of 4e?

[Beta]

I am new to DnD and RPGs in general, and prior to our game my DM is allowing me to create my own class instead of choosing one of the default ones. I created a build but one of the posters mentioned that the build did not follow the spirit of 4e: http://www.enworld.org/forum/4e-fan...class_idea-combat-engineer-need-feedback.html

So I am asking: What is the spirit of 4e?

 

[Doctor Proctor]

So I am asking: What is the spirit of 4e?

First off, you're breaking a lot of the unspoken rules of the system. Level 6 utility granting the ability to glide? Even limited flight is strongly discouraged in the Heroic Tier, and you're just handing it out to this class?

Secondly, classes aren't based around their equipment, neither are their powers. Or ammunition for that matter...except perhaps maybe the Ranger, but it's trivial to carry 3 quivers of arrows. It's not trivial to carry multiple packs of heavy ammo and heavy rig equipment. Have you even done the calculations on whether someone can actually carry all of this? Since Strength doesn't seem to be a primary attribute, do you realize that like a 12 strength can only carry 120lbs? Armor and shield alone will eat up 1/3 of that...how much does that leave for your equipment?

Lastly, if you're new to 4e and RPG's in general, why are you designing a class? You need to play the game with the existing classes to get a feel for how things work first. Take a look at the Artificer for some ideas on how incorporate "technology" into a class more. You can't just walk into a system and start designing classes because it leads to all sorts of balance issues and such.

Like your level 3 abilities? 1d10+INT+Immobilize versus 2d8+1d8 Fire damage? Assuming an INT mod of +4 you're talking 9.5 average damage (average of 1d10+4) and Immobilize versus a power that does 13.5 average damage, with 4.5 of it being Fire. The problem is, with no INT mod damage on the second power, it doesn't scale at all. So there's no point in taking the second power because the first one becomes stronger over time, while the second one does not. Not to mention the fact that Immobilize (save ends) is worth a LOT more than a measly 4 damage.

As for the "spirit" of 4e, they're probably referring to what "powers" actually represent. When a Wizard casts an encounter or daily, he's using a tremendous amount of magical energy to cast a powerful spell. He can do this once per encounter, or even once per day, because it's such a drain. When a Fighter uses an encounter or daily it's because he momentarily sees an opening to perform a devastating attack, or because he summons all his power into one single strike (like with Brute Strike). These can only be used once per encounter or once per day because they're either Herculian feats of power or because he sees a temporary opening that doesn't show up all the time.

Basically, the power are "cinematic". They're big, loud, impressive and limited. Yours are just arbitrary. Why can you only use a Cannon Spear once per encounter, but you can use a Fire Javelin whenever you want? It's just an arbitrary "this is stronger, so it's an encounter" mechanic. It doesn't represent those "cinematic" moments when a PC goes above and beyond their normal power to accomplish something epic. This is the "spirit" that you're missing.

 

[Gruns]

Actually from briefly looking over the class, the spirit of the game that you're missing is that 4E(or any edition of D&D really) isn't technology or steampunk based. It's high fantasy, sword and sorcery. For example, there are no grenades in D&D. (Unless they're made out of acorns.)
Later!
Gruns

 

[aurance]

Why can you only use a Cannon Spear once per encounter, but you can use a Fire Javelin whenever you want? It's just an arbitrary "this is stronger, so it's an encounter" mechanic. It doesn't represent those "cinematic" moments when a PC goes above and beyond their normal power to accomplish something epic. This is the "spirit" that you're missing.

Your "temporary opening that doesn't show up all the time" explanation can cover this though. Isn't one of the philosophies of 4e that you use RP to explain mechanics, not the other way around?

Honestly I don't see any problems with his class in respect to any "spirit of 4e," but there are a bunch of mechanical balance problems.

 

[Lizard]

Well, there isn't a "Technology" power source -- you'd be Martial.

Second, in addition to the comments mentioned above, you might just want to look at the Artificer class which was previewed in Dragon a few months back and which ought to still be available for free download. You can "reskin" most of the special effects to be "machines" instead of "magic items", if you want.

Hybrid roles are also very tricky -- there's been no official hybrids, and it's probably best to not tackle that as your first go at class design. Many of the existing classes have "touches" of other roles -- the Paladin can heal a bit, like a leader, and the Warlord fights in melee nearly as well as a Defender, for example. You're better off focusing on a single role with a "splash" of other abilities.

As a side note, to the poster above... I could say "Encounter" and "Daily" devices are simply very fragile; an Encounter device requires five minutes of tinkering to reset, while a daily device requires extended work. Actually easier to explain in-game than many other powers.

(For that matter, you could play a wizard and just describe all his spells as devices, maybe even decribing his power source as Martial so that anti-arcane effects don't hurt him. I don't know, that might be stretching it a bit.)

 

[DracoSuave]

Plus your role is controller without any control abilities. All you do is fire damage. Every ability falls into:

Do Fire Damage
Do Moar Fire Damage
Do Area Fire Damage
Do MOAR Area Fire Damage.

For a wizard/druid replacement he doesn't seem very capable of wizard-replacing.

I know you said 'Controller/Striker' but you haven't any idea what these roles mean. You've basicly said 'This must mean damage and AOE damage' and rolled with it. In fact, neither of these are exactly true.

The idea behind at-wills are 1) They are at-will. You can use them each and every round, because eventually in the fight you -have to.- By making each at-will have limits on how much you can use them you -severly- hamper this class. 2) You've made the at-wills have prerequisites. One of them you -have- to take with another, and the other two are build-restricted. Build-specific is fine, but build-restricted is not. 3) You can create an easily unplayable character with this. Here's how: Use your oneshot flame javelin, and a different secondary than 'grenade'. Now you can't use at-wills. At all.

Fail.

Secondly, classes are simple. It shouldn't require a PHD to understand how the class works. Your class made my eyes squint as I tried to figure out how to make it useful.

The spirit of 4e is number of options available, but a simple elegant presentation. This isn't a real time strategy game with tech-trees and prerequisites requiring other prerequisites etc. For example, using your design philosophy you could have a level 15 daily requiring a particular level 1 daily to be learned. Before you go 'ah, that's a good idea' remember you have to switch out one of your powers to get the level 15 ability. Then if you have a level 19 that requires a level 5 or 9, you've locked that one out.

You shouldn't need a roadmap to negotiate your class.

I disagree with the above that Technology is inappropriate as a power source. In fact, I rather like the concept of it (which is why I've always liked the artificer). D&D and steampunk are not bad fits in my opinion. But then again, that's opinion.

Until you have a lot more RP experience under your belt, you really shouldn't be examining game design. (There are tons people who spend years gaming who don't have a clue how to design a decent class and balance it properly. Sometimes they even get paid to do it: the Complete _______ Handbooks comes to mind. Kits were terribly unbalanced towards each other.)

 

[Doctor Proctor]

Actually from briefly looking over the class, the spirit of the game that you're missing is that 4E(or any edition of D&D really) isn't technology or steampunk based. It's high fantasy, sword and sorcery. For example, there are no grenades in D&D. (Unless they're made out of acorns.)
Later!
Gruns

Yeah, that's true too. I don't think that's the biggest problem though... We have repeating crossbows and skills like "dungeoneering" and now the Artificer class. I think there's room for a little bit of technology in the setting...but the way this works just goes against so many other basics of how the system actually works.

Your "temporary opening that doesn't show up all the time" explanation can cover this though. Isn't one of the philosophies of 4e that you use RP to explain mechanics, not the other way around?

Honestly I don't see any problems with his class in respect to any "spirit of 4e," but there are a bunch of mechanical balance problems.

If we were talking something like some crazy Dwarven engineer with auto-crossbows and flame pots like in Disciples II, then I could get behind that. When you're using a power that fires a rocket though, it's not about finding a "temporary opening". It's also not about being limited by a power source, since you're only limited by ammunition. It's just an arbitrary "you can do this this many times" that doesn't work well in 4e.

 

[Belphanior]

Some other comments:

"Shield hand free" refers to small and medium shields. These items do not exist. 4e knows only light shields and heavy shields.

Some powers are rig, some are implement, and there's one stray weapon in there. Considering the rig explicitly replaces both weapon and implement, this is a very silly oversight.

Everything targets AC or Reflex, and deals fire damage somehow. That's a sure recipe for incompetence. Since this class can't benefit from weapon bonuses to attack rolls, targeting AC makes such attacks relatively inaccurate. Exclusively dealing fire damage makes you too limited in scope and unable to deal with creatures who have resistance/immunity.



To answer the question "What is the spirit of 4e?" one would have to write an entire book. There are many subtleties and unwritten rules going on with regard to how classes work, what the balance between roles is, how to design a race or power or feat, and so on. I don't think it can be reasonably expected of anyone to produce an exhaustive treatise on the subject. I'd recommend just ditching this Combat Engineer class entirely and play with official products instead. You'll understand the spirit of 4e soon enough. It's a zen thing.

 

[Beta]

Thanks for the comments. Directed to Belpanior: Thanks for pointing out those two oversights. I finished up my posting rather late in the evening so I forgot to edit the Shield and the Weapon/Implement portion.

Addressing some other comments, I tried to model powers after a combination of warlock/wizard/rogue. I added a heavy use of ammunition to the class because I wanted the class to have to non-magic powered, but still have interesting ranged powers. The Rig, although it doesn't provide the base additional chance to hit as a weapon does was is compensated for by using INT +2 chance to hit on the main at-will of the 2 possible builds. Also, I originally modeled the grenade skills after alchemist fire.

I can see how not having enough types of damage can be a drawback...perhaps I should add some more acid damage and plain damage skills.

 

[Belphanior]

The Rig, although it doesn't provide the base additional chance to hit as a weapon does was is compensated for by using INT +2 chance to hit on the main at-will of the 2 possible builds.

But the fighter will have a +6 weapon at some point, and the wizard will have a +6 implement. Using the rig you'll fall behind very quickly.

Unless there's also magical rigs available, but they seem to defeat the purpose of wanting non-magic ranged powers. If you're going to replace your defiantly non-magical rig with a magical upgrade somewhere around level 1-3 anyway, you might as well make the entire thing technomagic in the first place.

Come to think of it, that might actually resolve quite a few issues. You could dispense with the ammo and tracking weight, both of which are really against the 4e spirit. Note that there exists no magical arrows anymore.