What is the standard ability score set? Are most games playing too high?

[Crothian]

But, what happens in the group where you have 1 15 point character and 1 40 point character?

I never said that was a good idea or that I've done anything like that. If that happens then toss out the DM because something's wrong.

 

[Crothian]

D&D is a game where stats matter. I'm sorry, but this is just true. You can't just make a 10 Str Human and, through careful planning, make him as good in combat while wielding a plain wooden club as someone with an 18 Str and a greataxe. Spellcasters require a good stat in order to reach upper level spells. No amount of planning makes it otherwise. A low Dex rogue trying to Hide or Move Silently may provide some comic relief, but being effective is part and parcel of being heroic.

I never said that they would be as effective as a uber character with 18's. Planning and playing smart can make a average character more effective. I've said it before it will be harder but not impossible. It's like a low level game verse a high level game; a campaign with low to average character stats is going to have to played differently then one with high character stats. But it doesn't make the low character stat game any less heroic.

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

It's like a low level game verse a high level game; a campaign with low to average character stats is going to have to played differently then one with high character stats. But it doesn't make the low character stat game any less heroic.

Maybe just a little less heroic, with a few more cries of, "Run away!" At least that has been my experience. But when PCs like this succeed, it is a real accomplishment, instead of a foregone conclusion with the only real question being; will it take 3 rounds or 4?

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

My only qualm with a lack of "high" stats is that some classes are more dependent on them. I mean for most of the PHB classes, I'm fine with 25-points. When it comes to the Paladin and the Monk however, they really need good stats in a lot of attributes, even if it's just 14, 14, 14, 10, 14, 14 (not so evident at low-levels but becomes more pronounced at higher levels; only partially resolved by good magic items).

That is my feeling, too. If I wanted to play something straightforward like a basic Fighter, Barbarian, Cleric, or Wizard, then I do not need a lot to feel effective at my chosen role. I could work with 14, 14, 12, 10, 10, 8 without a blink.

Other PC classes, especially the Paladin and Monk, and certain multiclasses, they look very weak at their own specialty.

 

[molonel]

I never said that they would be as effective as a uber character with 18's. Planning and playing smart can make a average character more effective. I've said it before it will be harder but not impossible. It's like a low level game verse a high level game; a campaign with low to average character stats is going to have to played differently then one with high character stats. But it doesn't make the low character stat game any less heroic.

Planning and playing smart can only do so much. A wizard with a 9 intelligence can't cast 1st level spells. Period. He can have the best of intentions. He can "feel" heroic. Maybe he's even a likeable guy.

But a fun character to play? No. Not unless you're playing in a 1-shot for comic relief purposes.

On a side note, I'd completely forgotten that older editions of the game actually penalized your ability to gain experience if you had low key stats:

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=193373

It is inescapable that heroism involves challenge, and challenge requires the possibility of success. Stats affect your ability to succeed.

A fighter has to be able to hit things, and do damage.
A cleric or wizard must be able to cast spells, and requires certain stats in order to do so.
A rogue must be able to utilize his skills, and depending on his stats, may or may not succeed.

If you can't do those things, then the game will feel less heroic.

It's nice to spout platitudes like "Stats do not make a character heroic" and "Being effective and being a hero are not the same thing" but there is a connection between those nasty numbers on the character sheet, and the heroism your character can accomplish.

And good intentions can't entirely make up for that.

 

[Emirikol]

Here's a question:

Does the length of a particular campaign matter in regards to your ability scores?

Pretend you're playing Age of Worms and you know you're going to level 20... DOes that affect what a DM should look at for ability score sets?


jh

 

[Crothian]

Planning and playing smart can only do so much. A wizard with a 9 intelligence can't cast 1st level spells. Period. He can have the best of intentions. He can "feel" heroic. Maybe he's even a likeable guy.

Why would you assume that a character with a 9 Int would take a level in Wizard? That's not playing smart or planning at all. It is one thing to have a character with low attributes but it is another to purposely make choices that can not work in the game.

It's nice to spout platitudes like "Stats do not make a character heroic" and "Being effective and being a hero are not the same thing" but there is a connection between those nasty numbers on the character sheet, and the heroism your character can accomplish.

And good intentions can't entirely make up for that.

Did you miss the part where I said that it is a completely different style of campaign. It is as different like a high level and a low level game are.

 

[Crothian]

Does the length of a particular campaign matter in regards to your ability scores?

Pretend you're playing Age of Worms and you know you're going to level 20... DOes that affect what a DM should look at for ability score sets?

Yes it does. A wizard with a 12 Int is fine in a campaign that's never going above 3rd level. But a game that's going to 20th it is going to be more problematic.

 

[molonel]

Why would you assume that a character with a 9 Int would take a level in Wizard? That's not playing smart or planning at all.

And why not?

Because your stats have something to do with your heroic ability in a RPG. They are not completely unrelated. Your ability to accomplish heroic action is related to those nasty numbers on your character sheet. It's not a 1-to-1 correspondence where the person with the best stats is the most heroic. But you can be prevented from being heroic in very real, and very tangible ways. You can be overshadowed by someone else who simply rolled better stats. And it can happen in a rich roleplaying, story-centered, charactercentric environment, too.

Your concepts of "playing smart" or "planning" have, up to now, concerned dealing with stats after the fact. These roleplaying skills can make up for poor stats, or so you've said.

But there are limits to that.

It is one thing to have a character with low attributes but it is another to purposely make choices that can not work in the game.

Why?

Stats do not make a character heroic. Being effective and being a hero are not the same thing.

Right?

Did you miss the part where I said that it is a completely different style of campaign. It is as different like a high level and a low level game are.

I understand what you're saying. But you flip-flop between making it sound like a difference of type, and a difference of degree.

You believe that stats effect heroic action, and can limit heroic action.

You've said so, yourself, in your most recent post.

You are not really any different from the people saying that stats matter.

 

[sam500]

I run the "Shackled City" for a 10 player group with a 38 point buy.
Only about 6 people show up each week, so it's not really a problem.
I like higher point buys because:
1. Players like seeing 18's in what they are meant to be good in.
2. Characters are meant to be heroic (I think).

Ability scores don't really matter so much. As the GM, you have all the player's information and can play the monsters more or less intelligently as you see fit to keep the challenges challenging.

ps: Point buy is the way forward.
It eliminates envy of other players who roll much higher and allows maximum versatility in deciding what class to be (why limit your choices of class due to bad rolls?).