Aldarc
Legend
So glad that you could return the favor then with your own hot mess.This is... well, a hot mess.
The problem is that Max does not stop at "I maximize the amount agency possible," but also makes claims of percentile subtraction and addition, and in regards to differing systems of agency, and turning this into a matter of dubious maths.Specific criticisms:
1) Percentage is a relative measurement. It measures what you have against the maximum you could have. So saying you have 100% agency isn't saying that agency isn't limited, it's just saying "I maximize the amount agency possible" and doesn't make statements on what's possible. A better criticism would be to point out that saying you have 100% agency isn't really saying anything at all because it's a relative measurement without a clear definition of what it's in relation to. Now, Max does state that his version of agency means 'player get to declare PC actions without restrictions' which is fine, but without that 100% agency is just meaningless.
The problem is that agency cannot be measured, except as you mention before in relation to some presumed standard of agency. These tend to be less about quantitative assessments but qualitative ones. Children may ask their parents for example "Who do you love more?" but with the understanding that this question cannot be substantiated, measured, or quantified, but will be qualitatively discussed.2) "more" and "less" are quantitative assessments. They talk about how much there is, not the quality of what there is. This is definitional.
3) No, you can't label 'more' and 'less' as qualitative arguments, because 'more' is not a quality something can possess. These are, again, quantitative statements. I sorely wish we'd actually talk about qualitative measures of agency, as that would mean we could talk about both where traditional play affects agency and where narrativist play affects agency and contrast, maybe, against mythical simulationist effects on agency.
I'm so glad that you spent one sentence out of your wall of text to say that you liked something that I wrote only to follow it up with eight sentences where you completely undermine that with ignorance of my argument.Now, once you get through this hot mess of numbers, you make a lot of sense. I really like your summation, which doesn't depend at all on your 1-3 above (and, in fact, kinda fights against some of the points you made).
What are you talking about? Please do not read things into my statements that are not there. Or make claims about my arguments that are not there. Do not make strong claims about "[my] style" when I have said little to nothing in this thread about what my preferred style is. My last statement is not meant to be self-righteous at all. And when I re-read my own statement, I see an absence of "vinegar." These sort of misreadings kinda undercut the accuracy of your assessments and ventures into more veiled personal attacks, Ovinomancer. I can't say that I'm a fan of it.But then that last line, full of vinegar and holier-than-thou righteousness. No, man, don't do that. If you stop telling people that your style has 'more' agency (where agency is a positive thing), you'll get less pushback. If, instead, you actually talk about the real qualitative differences, you'll get less (it's the internet, so 'none' is not an option). However, you then have to accept points where your style inhibits some agency (and it does) and take it with equanimity. Haven't seen that, yet, either -- had a nice exchange earlier trying to point out where Story Now limits agency and was repeatedly told it doesn't because that kind of play isn't part of Story Now. :\ It's like, maybe, people don't like to be told their styles aren't perfect?
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