What is *worldbuilding* for?

Aldarc

Legend
This is... well, a hot mess.
So glad that you could return the favor then with your own hot mess.

Specific criticisms:
1) Percentage is a relative measurement. It measures what you have against the maximum you could have. So saying you have 100% agency isn't saying that agency isn't limited, it's just saying "I maximize the amount agency possible" and doesn't make statements on what's possible. A better criticism would be to point out that saying you have 100% agency isn't really saying anything at all because it's a relative measurement without a clear definition of what it's in relation to. Now, Max does state that his version of agency means 'player get to declare PC actions without restrictions' which is fine, but without that 100% agency is just meaningless.
The problem is that Max does not stop at "I maximize the amount agency possible," but also makes claims of percentile subtraction and addition, and in regards to differing systems of agency, and turning this into a matter of dubious maths.

2) "more" and "less" are quantitative assessments. They talk about how much there is, not the quality of what there is. This is definitional.

3) No, you can't label 'more' and 'less' as qualitative arguments, because 'more' is not a quality something can possess. These are, again, quantitative statements. I sorely wish we'd actually talk about qualitative measures of agency, as that would mean we could talk about both where traditional play affects agency and where narrativist play affects agency and contrast, maybe, against mythical simulationist effects on agency.
The problem is that agency cannot be measured, except as you mention before in relation to some presumed standard of agency. These tend to be less about quantitative assessments but qualitative ones. Children may ask their parents for example "Who do you love more?" but with the understanding that this question cannot be substantiated, measured, or quantified, but will be qualitatively discussed.

Now, once you get through this hot mess of numbers, you make a lot of sense. I really like your summation, which doesn't depend at all on your 1-3 above (and, in fact, kinda fights against some of the points you made).
I'm so glad that you spent one sentence out of your wall of text to say that you liked something that I wrote only to follow it up with eight sentences where you completely undermine that with ignorance of my argument.

But then that last line, full of vinegar and holier-than-thou righteousness. No, man, don't do that. If you stop telling people that your style has 'more' agency (where agency is a positive thing), you'll get less pushback. If, instead, you actually talk about the real qualitative differences, you'll get less (it's the internet, so 'none' is not an option). However, you then have to accept points where your style inhibits some agency (and it does) and take it with equanimity. Haven't seen that, yet, either -- had a nice exchange earlier trying to point out where Story Now limits agency and was repeatedly told it doesn't because that kind of play isn't part of Story Now. :\ It's like, maybe, people don't like to be told their styles aren't perfect?
What are you talking about? Please do not read things into my statements that are not there. Or make claims about my arguments that are not there. Do not make strong claims about "[my] style" when I have said little to nothing in this thread about what my preferred style is. My last statement is not meant to be self-righteous at all. And when I re-read my own statement, I see an absence of "vinegar." These sort of misreadings kinda undercut the accuracy of your assessments and ventures into more veiled personal attacks, Ovinomancer. I can't say that I'm a fan of it.
 
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pemerton

Legend
I've never seen a table that wouldn't ask about the level of lighting in the defile if not told, as if it's in deep shadow who knows what could be hiding in there.
In the context of Cortex+ Heroic, the GM can just make something up if asked! I mean, there could be something hiding in shadows. Or perched on a peak waiting to drop. Or about to teleport in. Etc. In Cortex+ Heroic the introduction of new scene elements is generally handled by expenditure of dice from the Doom Pool, so that status of the defile as shadowy or well-lit only pertains to the colour accompanying any such thing.

Players who are worried about threats watch the Doom Pool, which tells them how much latent danger is in the situation; they don't worry about mere colour.

Of course I could have used, as a Scene Distinction, Shadowy Defile Between the Peaks, but I didn't. That different scene distinction would generate different outcomes in some circumstances - eg if a player was using Enhanced Senses to try and establish (say) a Clear View of the Battlefield asset, I could put the Shadowy Defile distinction into the Doom Pool for the opposing roll.

But as it happens I didn't, so I couldn't. But in any event it didn't come up because no one was worried about the lighting in the defile. They were concerned with the wyverns, and their rider and leader: should they fight them or befriend them? (It ended up going <failed attempt to befriend>, <fight which the PCs won>, <grudging agreement to lead them through the mountains>).

if "Narrow Deflie" doesn't have a clear definition somewhere in the system rules
"Narrow Defile" is a natural-language phrase that I made up. Just like Boulders Aplenty, Unpassable Snow, Terrible Drops, Clear Skies, Chill Wind (obviously the last two at least have been used by English speakers before me!, but I was the one who coined them in this context).

Cortex+ Heroic isn't a fully-fledged natural-language descriptor RPG (like HeroWars/Quest, or Maelstrom Storytelling, and probably others I don't know). But it does have a strong streak of that.

doesn't the system limit of so few distinctions - in a scene that might have many - tend to overmuch lead the PCs by the noses to where they need to go?
The scene distinctions tells the players what the GM thinks is interesting here. (Upthread some posters have asked "Does the 'story now' GM not get to exercise any creativity and affect the direction of play?" As [MENTION=82106]AbdulAlhazred[/MENTION] has said, the answer is obviously "Of course s/he does!" Here we see one way that manifests in MHRP/Cortex+ Heroic.)

But there is no need. There is a situation - the GM provides the framing, the players declare actions for their PCs, and we find out what happens. Of course the framing contributes to shaping that: eg it would be odd (although maybe not impossible given the PCs include a character with Supreme Sorcery) for a scene that involves Chill Winds, a Narrow Defile Between the Mountain Peaks, Unpassable Snow, a flight of wyverns, a rider of one wyvern, and Asgeir the chief of the mountain-folk, to end up with the PCs all resting on a sunny beach drinking cocktails with Asgeir. But it wasn't foreordained that it would end with the PCs being guests in the village of the mountain folk, hearing tails of the Earth Giant. Nor was it foreordained that this would be the event that led the berserker PC to foreswear words (his attempts to sway Asgeir having been unsuccessful, and leaving him looking slightly foolish as his words blew away on the wind).

For example, you only mentioning as distinctions the Furniture, Desk and Box immediately tells me-as-player I can ignore the rug, the papers on the desk, the small chandelier*, the fireplace*, and the faded portraits* on the walls as they've all just been defined as irrelevant. My PC, however, wouldn't know this.

* - not included in my original description but I throw them in now as things that could easily be in such a study

And another example of misinterpretation, in this case of a detailed description: in my narration I state the window looks out to the north, meaning that while the room is daylit it's unlikely to actually be sunlit unless it's early morning or late evening in the summer (and if such was the case I'd have amended the narration to suit). Sunlit vs. daylit makes a huge difference to the ambient light level in the room; only being daylit means there'll be some dark shadowy corners, and with all this dust if someone lights a torch or candle during their search... :)

Lan-"yeah, there's a reason I mention the dust three or four times in that narration: it's the room's hidden hazard"-efan
In the dusty study scene I narrated a page or three back I'd want a lot more specific detail on what the PCs are doing it and how; and in what sequence if not simultaneously.

Why's that, you ask? Because the room has a hidden-in-plain-sight Hazard (the dust, quite flammable if stirred up and then a flame is put to it) and a resulting fire could damage or destroy various key elements in the room, not least of which might be the very map they seek should it happen to be exposed if-when the room goes up.

Further, with a Hazard like this I-as-DM should place the map ahead of time such that - for continuity purposes; if it wasn't important they wouldn't be looking fo rit - it's in a safer location (e.g. inside the box on the desk) should the room catch fire. But I can't, and thus there's the risk of someone successfully searching the papers on the desk and finding the map there just as someone else lights a torch and *woof!*
As far as the map is concerned, there is no it's important and so has to be in the box.

But if you want the dust and the lighting to be important, than frame it that way: the action takes place in a room with Pools of Shadow, an Intriguing Box, and Layers of Dust. Then, when a player says something about using a candle or torch or whatever to look in the shadowy areas, spend a die from the Doom Pool to introduce a complication into the scene: Room Ablaze! You can even make it a timer complication, so it starts at the size of the die spent and steps up on is turn, until it gets to d12, and then on its next turn doubles and moves to the Doom Pool (allowing the GM to end the scene).

Or if you want an explosion rather than a timed threat, spend a die to introduce Gunpowder as a distinction that takes an attack (using the Doom Pool) at the end of the action sequence. (Allowing players who still have actions left to take the chance to try to get the powder away from the flame, using their Reflexes or Wind Mastery or whatever abilities.)

There are a lot of GM-side tricks that can be used in Cortex+ Heroic, and for my part I'm still developing my familiarity and capabilities with the full range of them. But they're about spending GM-side resources to introduce various sorts of elements into the scene. In mechanical and resolution terms they have almost nothing in common with writing up a dungeon map and key.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
So glad that you could return the favor then with your own hot mess.

The problem is that Max does not stop at "I maximize the amount agency possible," but also makes claims of percentile subtraction and addition, and in regards to differing systems of agency, and turning this into a matter of dubious maths.
You mistake me, I'm not defending Max's argument. I did say that his 100% argument didn't actually say anything, so adding and subtracting to that would also mean nothing. Your tilting at the wrong windmill.
The problem is that agency cannot be measured, except as you mention before in relation to some presumed standard of agency. These tend to be less about quantitative assessments but qualitative ones. Children may ask their parents for example "Who do you love more?" but with the understanding that this question cannot be substantiated, measured, or quantified, but will be qualitatively discussed.
I'm left wondering what you disagreed with, here.
I'm so glad that you spent one sentence out of your wall of text to say that you liked something that I wrote only to follow it up with eight sentences where you completely undermine that with ignorance of my argument.

What are you talking about? Please do not read things into my statements that are not there. Or make claims about my arguments that are not there. Do not make strong claims about "[my] style" when I have said little to nothing in this thread about what my preferred style is. My last statement is not meant to be self-righteous at all. And when I re-read my own statement, I see an absence of "vinegar." These sort of misreadings kinda undercut the accuracy of your assessments and ventures into more veiled personal attacks, Ovinomancer. I can't say that I'm a fan of it.
You did construct an argument that it was a qualitative statement to say "more" or "less", and this was in response to a payer disliking anothet poster's claim of "more," so I assumed your argument was defending being able to claim "more." If you had a different point, it remains unclear.

Note to self: [MENTION=5142]Aldarc[/MENTION] does not like the term "vinegar."

When you use words like, "See, but that sort of thought still often results in conversational religiosity, except not one of conversion, but as combating perceived heresies that threaten the prevailing hegemonic expression of the game's religious cultus [sic]...." it kinda seems like you have a bit of anger. Those aren't the words one uses to charitably describe another's argument, after all. Calling another's posts about playing pretend elves hegemonic and religious is a framing not used for discussion but dismissal.

You're welcome, by the way; I did think you had a good statement wedged in there between the bad arguments about percentages and qualitative measures and the ridiculous bits at the end. You should run with that
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
The limitations on player agency over the content of the shared fiction in Story Now gaming are the genre considerations, themes, and other concerns/priorities introduced by the players themselves? I don't get that.

Edited to add: Those are examples of the players exercising control/agency over the content of the fiction, not the other way around!
You're forgetting the mandate on the GM to frame into crisis. Yes, the player's have additional knot into the themes of okay and may have additional ability to write to backstory with actions ( ie, secret door creation) , but this is countered by the fact that the GM is required to frame the PCs into crisis over these points. The players lose the ability to mitigate issues with planning and are instead thrust into crisis regardless.

This is often dismissed because it's assumed that the players buy into this and desire it (and this is true), but a similar argument for traditional play is dismissed. Many Story Now games actually build in mechanics to mitigate this very issue by giving players extra story levers to mitigate bad things that happen to their PCs. Strangely, this is seem as more agency over traditional games rather than mechanics implemented to directly offset the agency restrictions built into the framing mechanisms of Story Now.

Don't get me wrong, here, I dont think this is a negative to Story Now. It aims for a target and hits it with the play it generates.
 

Aldarc

Legend
I'm left wondering what you disagreed with, here.
I am clarifying my original statements. If you agree, then we can move on.

You did construct an argument that it was a qualitative statement to say "more" or "less", and this was in response to a payer disliking anothet poster's claim of "more," so I assumed your argument was defending being able to claim "more." If you had a different point, it remains unclear.
In general, the use of "more" and "less" are almost unavoidable as terms of discourse in this discussion of agency, but I find that these arguments are essentially qualitative arguments couched in quantitative language. It's about like attempting somehow to quantify "Which country has more liberty: US or Canada?" It's a question attempting to quantify a more abstract notion with differing moral values about what qualifies as "liberty." But my acquiesence of using the terms "more" and "less" is more or less (no pun intended) an admission that these are almost unescapable when discussing what amount to moral values, principles, and such in the context of gaming.

Note to self: [MENTION=5142]Aldarc[/MENTION] does not like the term "vinegar."
No, I dislike you falsely reading "vinegar" into my statements.

When you use words like, "See, but that sort of thought still often results in conversational religiosity, except not one of conversion, but as combating perceived heresies that threaten the prevailing hegemonic expression of the game's religious cultus [sic]...." it kinda seems like you have a bit of anger. Those aren't the words one uses to charitably describe another's argument, after all. Calling another's posts about playing pretend elves hegemonic and religious is a framing not used for discussion but dismissal.
Except I don't, which again is you misreading things into my statements that are not there. Look, my own work is primarily religious in nature. For the last 10 years and counting, I have been surrounded by seminarians, priests, and religious scholars. It tends to flavor a lot of my language, but in this case, Bedrockgames introduced the language of religion in the discourse when describing the discussion in terms of religious conversion. Though I agree with Bedrockgames that this sentiment tends to crop a lot, I also find that the reverse to also be true, namely that a sort of religious fervor is present not only for "conversion," but also for any perceived "heresy" to the norms. This is not self-righteousness. This is not vinegar. This is not anger. It's simply a descriptive observation of our gaming culture. But I certainly will "have a bit of anger" when mistakenly people admonish me at length for behaviors and attitudes that I did not perform.

You're welcome, by the way; I did think you had a good statement wedged in there between the bad arguments about percentages and qualitative measures and the ridiculous bits at the end. You should run with that
Note to Self: In the future remember that gratitude is owed to one who prefaces insults of character with one sentence of general agreement with no substantive follow-through.
 

Caliburn101

Explorer
Amazing that anyone would bother to argue what a GM is.

The hobby defined this decades ago, and all more modern metagame mechanics or relative preferences for world-building detail did was give the definition a set of flavours.

It's still the same job, and pretending that your own preference in GM style is somehow a definition of what a GM MUST BE, is myopic reasoning.

It's entirely obvious what the role of a GM is unless you haven't role-played before, and it's equally obvious what world-building is for.

Storytelling needs a setting, and the characters in a story, while impacting that setting, didn't create it. Likewise some of the drama created is from their interaction with that setting, so like the character and motives of antagonists and protagonists, it has to suspend disbelief and be consistent.

What you, the player, or you the GM prefer in terms of meeting these requirements of an rpg session in terms of style and delivery is for you - you're way of doing things isn't 'The One True Way', and I see a lot of that kind of thinking in this thread.
 

Imaro

Legend
The limitations on player agency over the content of the shared fiction in Story Now gaming are the genre considerations, themes, and other concerns/priorities introduced by the players themselves? I don't get that.

Edited to add: Those are examples of the players exercising control/agency over the content of the fiction, not the other way around!

Wait so if the players agree that they want to explore/play through a particular module or a specific GM's world are they then exercising control/agency over the content of the fiction since playing said module or in said world is addressing their concerns and priorities for play?

If not, why not?

EDIT: To expound a little more... I feel like in the case of the examples of Story Now gaming, the play style and process is always presented as being in accordance with the concerns and priorities of the players but when looking at other playstyles it's not... but why is this assumed to be the case, why is it assumed that the playing of the module, it's themes, adversaries, etc are not in accordance with the concerns and priorities of the players? Why is it assumed that when players sit down to play in a GM's world they aren't aware enough that their concerns and priorites are aligned with the GM's world? I mean honestly I think this is where alot of the bad faith accusations are coming from.
 
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Imaro

Legend
I can only agree with what [MENTION=6787503]Hriston[/MENTION] has said. I simply don't see how getting to contribute to fiction that involves the stuff one wants, and addresses the thematic concerns one has signalled one cares about, can count as a limit on one's agency. It's an expression of it!

(Also: I've made this same point upthread; and so has [MENTION=82106]AbdulAlhazred[/MENTION].)

Same question I asked [MENTION=6787503]Hriston[/MENTION] above...
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
How can a player in a RPG, at one and the same time, be playing the game/I] and yet not have control over the declaration of actions for his/her PC? I don't know what you have in mind.


Your players opt to be unable to declare actions that don't pursue one of their formal or informal goals. Mine don't. You move the game along just placing them where they are going, rather than traveling there, denying them the opportunity(again opted into by them) to declare certain actions along the way, as the travel and those actions don't pertain to the goals and are "boring".

This is not about the number of actions a player can make, because as you pointed out very early in the thread, there are only so many actions a player can make in a night and they are making just as many in your game as they do in mine. This is about the number of actions they can choose from. My players can choose from any action appropriate to the game(No "I look for a rocket ship." in a D&D game), and yours cannot. Your players have the added ability to add things to the game through the fewer actions that they have to choose from, mine can't.

If the GM is doing what you describe as railroading - ie declaring actions for the players (I think that's what you mean?) - then what are the players doing? They don't seem to be playing.

Only if the DM is railroading ever moment of the game, which never happens unless the DM is also the players and he is doing a solo game. Instead, the DM railroads here and there(to varying degrees), only removing agency when he does it. That lessens agency, but does not remove it. It also typically pisses off the players.

This doesn't change the fact that there is something that I care about in RPGing, that isn't a feature of your games. For some reason it angers you that I call it agency in respect of the content of the shared fiction. But whatever label I gave to it, your game still - by your own account - would not exhibit it.
Not angry dude. :angel:
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
You mistake me, I'm not defending Max's argument. I did say that his 100% argument didn't actually say anything, so adding and subtracting to that would also mean nothing. Your tilting at the wrong windmill.

And a straw windmill at that, since I haven't actually done any math. You don't need to do math to know that if you have complete agency it's 100%, no agency at all it's 0%, or limited agency is somewhere in-between. Nor do you have to do math to know that if my agency is complete and so is [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION]'s, they are both at an equal percentage, with that percentage being 100%.
[MENTION=5142]Aldarc[/MENTION] continues to alter my argument, and then respond to his own fictitious change. A classic Strawman.
 

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