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What is wrong with 4E?

gizmo33 said:
Similarly, if I'm going to ask a city of people if they want to buy a longsword I don't actually have to roleplay that out. So a DM typically makes a blanket statement like "all 47,000 peasants are completely uninterested in buying your sword at any price" - which I'm pretty sure would be met with some interesting reactions from the people I play with.

You can't come up with a better reason than my flippant response? Especially if you're building a grand construction beyond your original prognostication; walk up to peasant, attempt to sell is far beyond "city of 47k people".

Off-hand, monopoly merchant guild with watchers. Enforced by city guards.

Yet I could imagine that if you are any kind of DM, you could reasonably answer the "can't sell at this specific moment" question yourself, up to and including "While you are selling, Wandering Monster Encounter!"

No explanation as to why a PC can't sell rope at the mouth of the Pit of Doom is probably necessary - but that's not what the rules are talking about IIRC. (But yet no real statement against PCs *buying* rope at the same location. Hmmm...)

What that passage is really saying is that the Rule 0 of DM'ing includes telling the players that they can't buy or sell their things at any time. I don't see how it counts as evidence of anything substantial.
 

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Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
At this point- having read much and played none of 4Ed- my complaints with it are many and varied, and my compliments are few but strongly held.

However, I think I can sum up my dislike of 4Ed in this way: There is much in the game that seems to have been altered from 3.X in a haphazard/arbitrary way, with both baby and bathwater getting tossed.

Multiclassing is a classic example for me. I felt the 3.X system was pretty good, with only 2 potential problems (IMO)- the XP penalty and the sheer number of classes (many of which weren't well designed & balanced or even redundant and having poorly defined roles).

The fix would have been dropping the XP penalty and pruning the class list.

Instead, we get 4Ed's "dabbler" system- not real multiclassing at all.

(In all honesty, 4Ed's system IS something that I was considering for a supplement to, but not replacement for the 3.X multiclassing system.)

In all fairness, it seems as if its a decent game, though its not one I'd have bought without the "D&D" label on it. But as it stands, I feel like my 2003 D&D Corvette has been replaced by the 2008 D&D Cavalier.
 
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Darth Shoju

First Post
waysoftheearth said:
The standard of the physical product isn't what I thought it would be... <snip>

That sucks, sorry to hear that. Can't say I experienced the same -- my books are in perfect condition and are well-built from what I can tell. My 2e books, on the other hand, are held together by hockey tape. ;)

waysoftheearth said:
The thing is this: There seems to have been a real shift toward a functional game. I agree that it is great to have a beautiful game system that is easy to play. But even at the expense of what it is meant to describe?

I dunno; the system being functional is pretty much paramount to my enjoyment. After all, the rest of the interesting stuff happens my imagination.

waysoftheearth said:
In previous editions of D&D, the emphasis was largely on form before function. Skills, feats, spells and so on were described in terms of what they did in the game world. The mechanics of how they worked within the rules was secondary. Sure, many times the rules themselves might have been broken -- but since you knew what the intent was within the game world, you could easily "fix" the rules so that function served form.

Huh? Did we read the same books? Did I miss the paragraphs that explained the place of Power Attack in the default D&D world? I don't recall Magic Missile ever being described as more than "Magic lights shoot out and do X damage".

Furthermore, I knew what the intent of Polymorph was, but damned if my group could figure out how to fix it.

waysoftheearth said:
The equipment prices also seem to reflect game function rather than materials and craftsmanship. The fact that many items cost a multiple of 5 gp is clearly intended to make calculations easier for players, but ends up being another detraction from the believability of the game world.

"Realistic" is not a word I would have used to describe D&D economies in any edition.

waysoftheearth said:
Finally, on character design, I can't help but feeling that the designers have tried to do too much thinking for the players. This might be great for new players, but it is so limiting for veterans.

How much character customization was there to be done with the core books of any edition prior to 3e? From what I recall, the customization didn't seem to go beyond what equipment you bought and what veiled reference to a body part your character's name was based on. Heck, even with 3e how much was there with the core books? Bob the Fighter got some skill points to divide up and a couple feats to pick, but that is largely the same in 4e (save for the skill points, but I always maxed those out in 3e anyway).

waysoftheearth said:
That there are fewer character classes will no doubt be remedied with future releases. But there is less also less of a distinction between classes -- a 4E class seems to be just bags of feats and powers to choose from.

So the classes in previous editions were made more distinct from one another by having fewer class abilities?

waysoftheearth said:
Because any character can do anything, a player's choice of class is far less significant.

If by that you mean there is less of a chance I'll regret playing a ranger or a monk compared to the folks who picked wizards or druids or clerics, then I see that as a good thing.

waysoftheearth said:
So I guess my fundamental disappointment is that, upon reading only, 4E seems to have become far less believable. It seems so much more a game now, and so much less an experience.

I'd agree that there are elements that push suspension of disbelief, but I've encountered that from every edition. I've got no problem with people playing whatever edition works for them, I just wish I wasn't seeing so many people around here trying to justify their choice to pass on 4e by proposing that it's nothing more than "D&D for Dummies" (for what it's worth, that book was actually published, and it was for 3e...)

I've had my fun with every edition of D&D, but I've always been in search of something that best meets my needs as a gamer. Since those needs have changed over time, I need my game system to do likewise. Luckily, 4e seems to be working for me.

Thanks for your post anyway. Have fun!
 
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Dannyalcatraz said:
However, I think I can sum up my dislike of 4Ed in this way: There is much in the game that seems to have been altered from 3.X in a haphazard/arbitrary way, with both baby and bathwater getting tossed.

Multiclassing is a classic example for me. I felt the 3.X system was pretty good, with only 2 potential problems (IMO)- the XP penalty and the sheer number of classes (many of which weren't well designed & balanced or even redundant and having poorly defined roles).

The fix would have been dropping the XP penalty and pruning the class list.

This example is wrong.

"Pick and Dip" multi-classing results in having the classes forced to either run the gauntlet for your Five Levels of Suck, or having to design around the Fierce Competitor with twenty Front-Loaded powers or abilities.

Mourn for the loss of a Sacred Cow to a alter of a Better Game; I don't mind you being a widow to it, but don't pull out the wrong argument in grief.
 

Dacileva

Explorer
Dannyalcatraz said:
Multiclassing is a classic example for me. I felt the 3.X system was pretty good, with only 2 potential problems (IMO)- the XP penalty and the sheer number of classes (many of which weren't well designed & balanced or even redundant and having poorly defined roles).

The fix would have been dropping the XP penalty and pruning the class list.
This significantly downplays the much larger problem with multiclassing which was glaringly evident from day 1:

It works better for some classes than others. Like, better on the order of "makes some classes drastically better" vs. "makes other classes worthless". To demonstrate this, answer one question: Where did 3.x multiclassing leave primary casters?

The XP penalty was either negligible, avoided, or dropped completely in every game I saw or played. Pruning the class list would have actually made the situation worse, because fewer classes meant fewer concepts that worked, due to the glaring inadequacy of multiclassing rules when it came to caster classes.
 

Spatula

Explorer
Dannyalcatraz said:
Multiclassing is a classic example for me. I felt the 3.X system was pretty good, with only 2 potential problems (IMO)- the XP penalty and the sheer number of classes (many of which weren't well designed & balanced or even redundant and having poorly defined roles).

The fix would have been dropping the XP penalty and pruning the class list.

Instead, we get 4Ed's "dabbler" system- not real multiclassing at all.
3e-style multiclassing doesn't make sense in the 4e view of classes, because 4e class levels are not discrete chunks of bonuses as they are in 3e.

Real multiclassing in 4e is: you make a brand new class that combines elements of two or more classes - like the upcoming swordmage (a fighter/wizard defender class). The entire paradigm, as much as I hate to use that word, has changed; you might as well complain that you can't do 1e/2e style multiclassing in 3e. You'd be right, but the point is irrelevant because 3e built its classes in a different fashion from 1e/2e. And so has 4e. Obviously that's a bit of disappointment right now since creating a new class is a lot of work and we don't have that many options with just the PHB 1. But those options will exist in the future, and they will sell a lot of books for WotC. ;)

Regarding 3e multiclassing, it had many problems. I don't really consider the XP thing to be one of them - did anyone actually ever use that? I just treated it as "don't build a character that would invoke the XP penalty" making it more of an outright restriction, one that I had no problems with. The biggest issue is that classes that depend on levels in that one class for their power cannot be multiclassed effectively without outside help. Spellcasters are the big ones there (you need levels in that particular spellcasting class to make your spells effective), but it also applies to monks (unarmed damage), warlocks (eldritch blast damage), and probably some later splat classes as well. The only classes that stacked together well in 3e were those that depended solely on magic weapons and BAB for hurting monsters. 3.5 tacked on some bandaids to make certain other combos kinda work, and left the rest in the dustbin.

In a lot of ways, 3e multiclassing is about giving people without system mastery the freedom to suck. 4e is less flexible - you need one class per concept instead of a handful of flexible base classes that you mix & match - but it also does a better job of not letting players shoot themselves in the foot. If you play solely with gaming geeks, that probably doesn't mean much to you. If you have casual players in your group, it means a lot.
 
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Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
This example is wrong.

"Pick and Dip" multi-classing results in having the classes forced to either run the gauntlet for your Five Levels of Suck, or having to design around the Fierce Competitor with twenty Front-Loaded powers or abilities.

I didn't pull out the wrong argument.

Dipping is a potential hazard of any class-based RPG system, and is the result of having a class' "best" abilities being front loaded. One potential design fix for this is having such abilities be introduced at low levels and increase in potency only as the PC gains levels within the class (or one closely related to it). Another is to eliminate benefit gaps in the leveling of a given class.

Those individually or in tandem with each other and potentially even more options would have been fine.

And in all honesty, 4Ed does some of this- the benefit gaps are absent, for instance.

That doesn't change the fact, though, that a 4Ed PC cannot multiclass from level 2, cannot divide his XP equally between his multiclass choices for a balanced progression, cannot choose more than one class in which to dabble, and does not get the full benefit of the class in which he dabbles- all of which are available in 3.X.

This significantly downplays the much larger problem with multiclassing which was glaringly evident from day 1:

It works better for some classes than others.

Like, better on the order of "makes some classes drastically better" vs. "makes other classes worthless". To demonstrate this, answer one question: Where did 3.x multiclassing leave primary casters?

The XP penalty was either negligible, avoided, or dropped completely in every game I saw or played. Pruning the class list would have actually made the situation worse, because fewer classes meant fewer concepts that worked, due to the glaring inadequacy of multiclassing rules when it came to caster classes.

First, that has more to do with the inherent imbalances between classes than the multiclassing system itself.

Second, so what if spellcasters lose out on higher level spellcasting punch by multiclassing? This is not an inadequacy- they're opting for flexibility, and the 3.X system reflects the real downside of this quite vividly. Those who are equally talented in a variety of areas are quite rare indeed- even Michael Jordan couldn't play pro-level baseball.

Third, even if you aren't convinced that the 3.X system is more realistic, neither the answer nor the problem is about how high-level casters get screwed by multiclassing, its about the power discrepancy between high-level magic and the high-level abilities of other classes. Remove that discrepancy, the perceived problem evaporates.

Fourth, as you point out, the XP penalty is often avoided as a houserule- the obvious fix was fairly widely (though not universally) adopted. Codifying it in 4Ed would have been accepted without a yip.

Fifth, pruning coupled with better class design (IOW, well defined roles, less redundancy, more attention to the design consequences) would have worked just fine. Look at the PrCls that have some kind of spellcasting. Some of the early ones had seperate and limited spell lists or added singleton spells. Most of the latter ones simply improve the spellcasting ability of the PC's underlying spellcasting class- the more limited options are almost never used anymore.

Sixth, the 4Ed multiclassing system doesn't really address the problem of the 3.X primary caster. Instead it nerfs the number & potency of the abilities gained in the dabbled class. It "solves" one problem by creating a different one.

In a lot of ways, 3e multiclassing is about giving people without system mastery the freedom to suck. 4e is less flexible - you need one class per concept instead of a handful of flexible base classes that you mix & match - but it also does a better job of not letting players shoot themselves in the foot.

Personally, I don't see that as a feature- its watering down the game. I didn't depend upon the system itself to keep me from making mistakes- I grew up with other gamers helping me figure out the system, and then did the same for other novices as I got older.

I grew up with unedited WB cartoons. At some point in my adulthood, someone edited them so all of the "violence" was edited out. Instead of seeing Daffy Duck get his head blackened and his beak blasted to the backside of his head by Elmer Fudd's shotgun blast, EF would take aim, then you'd see Daffy closing his beak on his blackened head.

Similarly, I saw a lot of schools and public libraries remove controversial classic novels from their shelves.

In both cases, it was to "protect the children."

For me, 4Ed is just like those edited WB cartoons, or those libraries without classics. Or, more accurately, like a bicycle from which the training wheels can never be removed.

Design the game for adults & experienced gamers, and then let them adapt it for those who are less experienced (for whatever reason). Don't design the system for the lowest common denominator- here, the novice or inexperienced gamer.
 
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Samuel Leming

First Post
What's wrong with 4e?

To start with, there's a complete and total lack of flumph! :(

Where's the pixie? How about the frost giant? Where's the djinn? At this point I could use some gin. ;)

Seriously, in traditional D&D creatures are used in world building, not just for opponents. Booting useful creatures in favor of variants may not lose them sales initially, but could cost 4e session-share if not remedied soon.

What else is wrong? I'm still reading... I'll kvetch more later.

Sam
 
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Spatula

Explorer
Some people are not interested in system mastery. They just want to sit and play games with their friends and have fun.

Like I said, if you play soley with gaming geeks who enjoy spending their free time memorizing what spells do, the many pitfalls inherent to 3e mutliclassing (or feat selection, or spell selection) are not important, because they will be avoided via knowledge of the system. If you play with people who do not find those activities fun - who in fact view it as work that they don't want to do in order to play a game - then those pitfalls are obstacles to having fun.

Dannyalcatraz said:
Design the game for adults & experienced gamers
Just about all of the adult gamers I know have jobs and families now, and don't have time for mastering game systems, even if they did enjoy some of those activities when we were younger (not me obviously, since I'm posting on a msg board after midnight). And their wives want to play but view the system mastery aspects as work. In my view, WotC did design the game for adults.

But again, regardless of the merits or flaws of 3e's multiclassing, it is not present in 4e because that's not how things work in 4e. It makes no sense in 4e's context.
 
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