What It's Like For a Gamer Girl

[Kahuna Burger]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not that every response is "emotional" because that indicates a seperation of emotions that doesn't exist, no matter how much some would like to pretend it can.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


You lost me there. Want to elaborate, rephrase, make it clearer? Are you saying there are certain emotions that don't exist or that emotions cannot be seperated one from another.

More that calling a social response "emotional" is redundant, and thus something I wouldn't say. I'd call it social and say that emotions are going to be part of it. generally, when people call something "emotional" in western culture, its shorthand for "invested with emotions that I don't respect or can't deal with". Arrogence is an emotion, hatred is an emotion, ego is an emotion no matter how level you keep your voice while you are expressing them.

So saying that I see everything as an "emotional response" (the previous poster's assertion) is foolish because its just assuming the seperation of "emotional social responses" and "rational social responses" that is (usually) just as division of emotions and how they are expressed - A seperation I was attacking in the first place.

By the by, for what it is worth, from your previous post, not all men respond with outbursts of anger when confronted with problems. Laughter tends to be my preferred emotional response.

but is it your instinctive one? At low levels of frustration I much prefer to simply get quiet and focused. You can add "typical" before every comment on guys or women made in this entire thread IMHO. But the general point is that after long years of interactions I've figured out that guys aren't really in a killing rage when they react to the printer the way it would take a serious psychosis for me to... but even guys older than me who have been in long happy relationships are still very likely to think I'm having a nervous breakdown when I shed a few tears - because a complete collapse of their life is what (they would like to think) it would take for them to have the same reaction.

Kahuna burger

 

[leeann_the_lame]

It appears I've responded to the wrong nit-pick above. My bad.

The point being made was that it seemed people were approving of the "male" mode of behavior:

The only problem with this theory is that there an assumption (underlying most of your responses, IMHO) that in the social sphere its the women who have to adjust their behaviour to be one of the guys. Men only need to read the book to "handle" that special woman or two in their lives, but women need to learn how to act the right way to get into society.

I was just pointing out that I don't necessarily think the "male" (or geek or whatever) way is the right way, it just is. Maybe I should have used "right" instead of "approved of".

 

[leeann_the_lame]

Oh - and I'd like to agree with Kahuna Burger: There are no unemotial human social interactions. It is truly that some emotions that are more ok for women and some for men.

But it sound to me like the original post might be a case of the emotion of being afraid of emotion.

 

[Kahuna Burger]

I am curious as to in what way do you consider yourself an outsider? Are you saying you do not think like a girl thinks or you just do not believe in the tendency for guys and girls to think differently?

Shy kid with an older and younger brother - so my overwhellming socialization was with guys. Just couldn't relate to the "girl talk" of the gradeschool kids... But had it made VERY clear on one (traumatic) occasion and countless lesser ones that I was not a boy either and would not be accepted as one. And since I never was popular enough to be socialized with a mass of guys, I never picked up their social norms either.

Mostly I just hung out with "geeks." But past college I discovered that a lot of the people who game now aren't geeks (I guess for them this is a good thing) So gamer no longer overlaps with "Not socialized strongly into your gender norm and thus more willing to find a middle ground than most 'average' kids" the way it did when I started gaming.

Its kinda weird, but you could say that the mainstreaming of gaming has made it less welcoming in some ways. When gaming was more "fringe" it was done for its own sake, not as a football alternative for a "boys night". Gamers were just glad to have another gamer, and I never felt different for being female - we were all different, we were gamers.

Kahuna burger

 

[Wicht]

but is it your instinctive one? [/B]

Yeah, laughter is pretty much my instinctive reaction to trouble (and unfortunately often to people) .

I can't see getting mad at inanimate objects or random chance. Much better to see the humor in a situation before trying to solve it than in flying off the handle.

 

[Wicht]

But past college I discovered that a lot of the people who game now aren't geeks (I guess for them this is a good thing) So gamer no longer overlaps with "Not socialized strongly into your gender norm and thus more willing to find a middle ground than most 'average' kids" the way it did when I started gaming.

Speaking as a former geek gamer, I think that a lot of us simply grew out of that geek/nerd stage and that is the reason there are fewer in the gaming community.

As a fairly intelligent, mature, non-athletic adolescent, I never quite fit into the normal social mode either and was throughout my formative years often an outsider. Gaming was not for me an outgrowth however of this nerd status but simply something I thought fun. And as I matured I came to realize that I could just be comfortable being me and I now can socialize comfortably with just about any social strata.

I think its all about self-perception. I still enjoy all the things now that I did then and am now as an adult even more involved in my hobbies than before. But I no longer percieve myself as an outsider.

 

[Teflon Billy]

When I read through the first three pages, there was not one post suggesting that "male" behaviour was anything but the way gaming groups should be. Even the female posters basicly came down to "I like gaming, so I just act like a guy". "Took it like a man" was used to indicate propper good gamer behaviour...

Unless the female in your hypothetical situation is a founding member of the group, then yes; it behooves her to try and adapt to the existing group's way of interacting with one another.

If I am invited to a black tie party and want to show up in a pair of underpants and a paper hat, that's unfair to the hosts.

If I joined a bridge club, and their rule was "no smoking", lighting up would be rude and innappropriate.

If I joined a D&D group where the prevailing interactions were based on the well-structured, "everyone speaks" model of Robert's Rules of Order (used in the British Parliamentary System I think), and I chose to just sound off whenever I felt like it, that would be poor and unpleasant behaviour.

Nothing changes when you replace "Robert's Rules of Order" with "Typical Male Behaviour Patterns". They are the model for interaction put in place by the founding members.

Interestingly, a couple of counterpoints were raised while I was in the middle of my (very long) post, but prior to that the only two viewpoints raised were "guys aren't like that" and "Guys are like that and its GOOD, you whining pansy" (Hi Billy)

Howdy

You put words in my mouth, I didn't say anything close to "Guys are like that and its GOOD, you whining pansy"; We were asked to explain (or speculate) why the listed behaviours might be occuring and I stated why I felt they might be.

If I was summarizing, I would probably describe my comments as "Guys are like that, and aren't likely to change based on New-Agey Lectures about 'playing nice'".

Go read my post again and pull out apporpriate quotes, because I just re-read it, and I'm missing what you mean.

Sorry to actually point out the climate that this discussion is taking place in.

No you're not. And the whole "well excuse me for pointing out the obvious" sarcasm is a cheap and unnecessary shot.

I've been an outsider to guythink and girlthink my whole life, and I will point out the dynamics that are happening. A psych background didn't help the tendancy to analyse human behaviour...

Heh, tell me about it. I used to be married to someone with a Psych Degree. I was analyzed about weekly for 7 years

 

[BSF]

Oh my word! This thread has ballooned. Not a real surprise. I have been reading for two days and debating whether I have anything useful to contribute without being too long winded. My conclusion?

Not really. The issue here is complex. Interpersonal dynamics and all that. I could pick just about any position stated here and support it, or shoot some holes in it. There are so many what-if's and unknowns that it is difficult to speak in anything except very broad terms, or extremely specific. There is no point in painting with a broad brush and there isn't enough information to explain the behavior of any given person. Heck, the only real information we have is ho Afrodyte feels about it.

Afrodyte - here is the crux of the issue. You are probably with the wrong group of people for your gaming. You are offering your opinions and realize that they are subjective. Realize that there is nothing wrong with that! Don't let anybody tell you otherwise because we are talking about how _you_ feel in this situation.

The behavior that you are experiencing might be normal interaction between these people. Many guys act like that. They might be trying to include you in their testosterone bonding, or they might be trying to make you feel like the non-male outsider. But really, who cares?

If you are not comfortable in the situation, get out. Find a group that is more comfortable for you.

Djeta - From the posts I have read here on EN World, you sound like a neat person. It would be really cool to meet you sometime.

leeann - In many ways, you sound like a friend of mine that I somehow lost contact with years ago. It's not likely that you are that person, but it seems like you are dealing with a lot of the same issues that she was. IMHO - Dealing with testosterone computer jerks is harder than testosterone gaming jerks. Hang in there, you are proving that a woman can do the job.

For all the other women reading & posting - Hey! I love the fact that more women are playing the game. I am blessed to be in a group with 2 women who are dear friends. I run another game for my wife and a "bunch of guys". I haven't played in a game without at least one woman since I was 18 (so 15 years). I wouldn't change that. Don't put up with the jerks, get in games that you like and are comfortable in. If you are out in my neck of the woods and are having trouble finding a comfortable game, let me know. It might not be your cup of tea, but then again, it just might.

For all the guys reading & posting - Some of you sound like you can be brutal. I can hang with you, you better wear a cup. For those that aren't burtal, you don't need to be. Are you having fun with your individual games? Great!

 

[jgbrowning]

Mostly I just hung out with "geeks." But past college I discovered that a lot of the people who game now aren't geeks (I guess for them this is a good thing) So gamer no longer overlaps with "Not socialized strongly into your gender norm and thus more willing to find a middle ground than most 'average' kids" the way it did when I started gaming.

I agree with most of your opinions about social interaction in this thread until this. It's belittling to believe that those who once were geeks and now aren't, are now not geeks because they "socialized into gender norms."

Not everything is about gender. Most geeks have the same interests and activities they did before, but now they have social skills to adapt to different situations. Social skills are not gender specific because, although one can argue that knowing how to react is influenced by gender roles, there are also many completely acceptable ways to act independant of gender roles. Also, knowing a gender role doesn't in any form or fashion mean that one must act in that manner: that's choice.

And although I agree with most of what you've said, you've managed to say it all the wrong ways assuming your posts were attempts to get people to view "typical" behavior from a different viewpoint. No one, especially the ones whose behavior your criticising, is going to respond positively to the tone you used.

joe b.

 

[jgbrowning]

Unless the female in your hypothetical situation is a founding member of the group, then yes; it behooves her to try and adapt to the existing group's way of interacting with one another.

If I am invited to a black tie party and want to show up in a pair of underpants and a paper hat, that's unfair to the hosts.

If I joined a bridge club, and their rule was "no smoking", lighting up would be rude and innappropriate.

If I joined a D&D group where the prevailing interactions were based on the well-structured, "everyone speaks" model of Robert's Rules of Order (used in the British Parliamentary System I think), and I chose to just sound off whenever I felt like it, that would be poor and unpleasant behaviour.

Nothing changes when you replace "Robert's Rules of Order" with "Typical Male Behaviour Patterns". They are the model for interaction put in place by the founding members.

The examples you used are pretty good, but part of adapting to an environment is also exerting one's opinions on the group. The consensus may be one thing, but that concensus can change. Nither the original behavior nor the newly changed behavior have any form of "right," which is what I think KB was trying to say.

joe b.