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What LA is this?

Eltharon

Explorer
I'm designing my own race of ogres for my campaign, slightly weaker (and more PC suitable) then the MM version. Would these stats get a +0 or +1 LA(+2 form hit die, of course)?

+6 Str, -2 Dex, +2 Con, -2 int, -4 Cha
+4 Intimidate
Bonus Feat
Large size
40 ft movement
+1 natural Armor

2 Levels in Giant, granting
2D8 Hit die
+1 BaB
(2+int)x5 skill points
One feat
Low Light Vision
Darkvision 60 ft
Fort +3, ref +0, Will+0
Proficient in martial and simple weapons and all armor
 

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Eltharon

Explorer
Is the bonus feat that unbalancing? A MM ogre is LA +2, and my ogre gives up 4 points f natural armor, 4 points of strength and 2 points of constitution in exchange for 2 points in intelligence.
 

FrostedMini1337

First Post
Beggining Note: There are much more capable people who will have books like Savage Species and DMGII which have tables and charts and whatnot that will be a lot more helpful than me, so wait for them.

The ones from the MM also have more hitdice. Dead hitdice. No class abilities, no nothing, just a crappy d8 cleric BaB and a good fort.

You advantages over the MM are: unstupidity. 6 Int or Wis is really almost unplayable, not in game terms but roleplaying terms. Your mental defficency would be staggering. 8 is doable.
You can actually do something with those 2 hitdice. That is sooooo huge.
And you would start as a 3rd Level Character with 3 feats, that's Large Sized

LargeSize + Uneven Stats + Bonus Feat= 2 LA IMO. (The Skill Bonus is negligible since intimidate has so few uses, but flavorful and a nice touch)
 

Graf

Explorer
The bonus feat is just weird.
Most everyone plays a human in games that I’ve seen -because- of the free feat. It’s the signature human ability.
It will make the creature pretty attractive, especially if you allow a lot of feat choices.
I’d be surprised if anyone even considers a half-orc.

On a power basis?
Since your ogre is going to “best” as a fighter-type I would just compare it to a human fighter.

Example
(Assuming you use an elite array and put the top three stats in the same physicals
i.e. str 15, con 14, dex 13 -> Ogre stats: 21 str, con 16, dex 11)

Armed with a greatsword (probably the most popular melee weapon and full plate)
Basic stats (uses normal rules like max hit points at first level, etc)
Ogre 3rd level character (2HD +1 LA)
Def: AC 18 (+8 armor, +1 NA, -1 size) Hit points avg: 18.5
Attack: +5 (Bab+1, Str +5, size -1) Damage 3d6+7 (avg: 19.25*)
*17.5 base + 1.75 bonus damage from crits (assuming 50% confirmation rate)
Melee Reach, Darkvision, etc.

Human 3rd level fighter (bonus feat: Weapon Focus Greatsword, Power Attack)
Def: AC 19 (+8 armor, +1 dex) Hit points avg: 21
Attack: +5 (Bab+3, Str +2, +1 weapon focus, -1 power attack) Damage 2d6+5 (avg: 12.2*)
*12 base + 1.2 bonus damage from crits (assuming 50% confirmation rate)

So what do we have: Defense is a wash to my mind; the small differences will disappear in a level or two.
The ogre romps on the attack front, same chance to hit, roughly double the damage output, with large size he’ll have AoO’s on incoming foes especially if he’s got using a reach weapon (he can hit things -20- feet away). The upper quartile of his crits are going to be 50+ points of damage per shot.
At this level attacking with more points in power attack isn’t going to be particularly useful.

-Nobody- in their right mind would play a human fighter in a game with this character*. With normally constructed characters (read 16+strengths, optimized feats) the ogre will be far and away better than any normal character on the melee combat front.
*UNLESS the human gets a bonus feat and the ogre doesn’t. It won’t really help out much early on but people love feats and it will let the human get into PrCs later.

So no, a bonus feat is not something giants normally get and this ogre is, in its area of strength, far more powerful than a comparable human already. Adding in extra sugar to this guy will just mean that all your combat character playing players will feel stupid if they don’t play your specially designed super race.

-If- you want to somehow make the ogre attractive for a non-combat role/class then you should consider giving it some limited ability in the area in question (+2 effective caster levels for determining level dependent spell variables, or bonus on bardic lore checks, or bonus to charisma for purposes of turning).
I’d might consider raising the Int to +0 if you wanted to reflect its intelligence or adaptability. That would be more normal than handing out a bonus feat.
 

Eltharon

Explorer
It was adaptability i was going for with that bonus feat, but I don't want to raise int to 0. They might be adaptable, but they're still pretty stupid.
I think I might drop it for the ability to choose any background at all from the world, along with humans. (Backgrounds give a couple skill bonuses)
 



KuKu

First Post
Graf said:
The bonus feat is just weird.
Most everyone plays a human in games that I’ve seen -because- of the free feat. It’s the signature human ability.
It will make the creature pretty attractive, especially if you allow a lot of feat choices.
I’d be surprised if anyone even considers a half-orc.

On a power basis?
Since your ogre is going to “best” as a fighter-type I would just compare it to a human fighter.

Example
(Assuming you use an elite array and put the top three stats in the same physicals
i.e. str 15, con 14, dex 13 -> Ogre stats: 21 str, con 16, dex 11)

Armed with a greatsword (probably the most popular melee weapon and full plate)
Basic stats (uses normal rules like max hit points at first level, etc)
Ogre 3rd level character (2HD +1 LA)
Def: AC 18 (+8 armor, +1 NA, -1 size) Hit points avg: 18.5
Attack: +5 (Bab+1, Str +5, size -1) Damage 3d6+7 (avg: 19.25*)
*17.5 base + 1.75 bonus damage from crits (assuming 50% confirmation rate)
Melee Reach, Darkvision, etc.

Human 3rd level fighter (bonus feat: Weapon Focus Greatsword, Power Attack)
Def: AC 19 (+8 armor, +1 dex) Hit points avg: 21
Attack: +5 (Bab+3, Str +2, +1 weapon focus, -1 power attack) Damage 2d6+5 (avg: 12.2*)
*12 base + 1.2 bonus damage from crits (assuming 50% confirmation rate)

So what do we have: Defense is a wash to my mind; the small differences will disappear in a level or two.
The ogre romps on the attack front, same chance to hit, roughly double the damage output, with large size he’ll have AoO’s on incoming foes especially if he’s got using a reach weapon (he can hit things -20- feet away). The upper quartile of his crits are going to be 50+ points of damage per shot.
At this level attacking with more points in power attack isn’t going to be particularly useful.

-Nobody- in their right mind would play a human fighter in a game with this character*. With normally constructed characters (read 16+strengths, optimized feats) the ogre will be far and away better than any normal character on the melee combat front.
*UNLESS the human gets a bonus feat and the ogre doesn’t. It won’t really help out much early on but people love feats and it will let the human get into PrCs later.

So no, a bonus feat is not something giants normally get and this ogre is, in its area of strength, far more powerful than a comparable human already. Adding in extra sugar to this guy will just mean that all your combat character playing players will feel stupid if they don’t play your specially designed super race.

-If- you want to somehow make the ogre attractive for a non-combat role/class then you should consider giving it some limited ability in the area in question (+2 effective caster levels for determining level dependent spell variables, or bonus on bardic lore checks, or bonus to charisma for purposes of turning).
I’d might consider raising the Int to +0 if you wanted to reflect its intelligence or adaptability. That would be more normal than handing out a bonus feat.

What about skill points, saving throws, hit points? These are all part of the character as well. A fighter is poor in some of these areas to begin with but isnt that also an important part of the comparison? Especially since the human fighters skill points will be much higher. Couldnt the same basically be said for a halfling versus a fighter? A person going for a big weapon fighting build would be smart to always choose the human over the halfling. It would seem that your examples are only showing part of the picture and while the conclusion may be correct it is hard to tell with just this.
 

Zimbel16

First Post
Eltharon said:
I'm designing my own race of ogres for my campaign, slightly weaker (and more PC suitable) then the MM version. Would these stats get a +0 or +1 LA(+2 form hit die, of course)?
My forumlas would suggest at least +2 LA, with a chance of +3 (very roughly, Str +6 is worth +3 LA, but that's mitigated by 1 due to the weak HD). Although you can pick at the details, graf has the right idea - compare, say a 1/2 orc barbarian with a leveless "ogre" with the same equipment at the same XP count, and see if either of them are definately "better". If so, change the LA, and try again.
 

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