What Level 27 Characters Are Capable Of

[Manbearcat]

With regard to Damage Auras: In my experience, they are the most lethal AND LEAST satisfying thing a monster can have.

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As a DM I've mostly avoided it.

I don't mind damage auras, you just have to use moderation.

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I only use auras for solos, and it's a way of countering "lockdown" (they will always do damage regardless of being locked down, unless there's a way to shut off the aura). The beholder actually has a similar rule; it automatically attacks anyone starting their turn near it (and in MM1, this was literally an aura) as long as it is conscious. A stunned beholder can still use that "aura".

I like Sly Flourish's "donut aura" as there's an element of strategy to it. The aura is very large and prevents PCs from seeing through it (the one I used was psionic so it was messing with PC vision) but the aura does not exist within 5-10 squares of the boss. It prevented range ganking and also ensured that PCs were always moving (the boss was).

While I can certainly understand that they would be annoying (the point!) I'm of the same mind as (Psi)SeveredHead on auras. Like anything, you want to use them in moderation and generally want to reserve them for a fight that has meaning.

By my estimation, from a tactical perspective, auras occupy roughly the same conceptual space as (i) zones and (ii) marking/defender control. They force the opposition to make a difficult choice between two suboptimal decisions; eg the "catch-22":

- Do I stay within the boundary of the aura and suffer the damage or (likely worse) condition?

or

- Do I move and provoke one or more Opportunity Attacks?

Like any proper control effect, it induces tactical overhead that the players must deal with in order to advance their agenda (positioning to protect the artillery, positioning to set-up for a group nova, positioning to ensure people are in protective zones/auras of their own or within range of positive effects, protect a minion, et al). They work best when coupled with an effect (an equally punitive OA by the primary enemy or a secondary enemy, or a hazard/trap dynamic that works in conjunction), an enemy group dynamic that creates force multiplication (eg the Aura afflicts vulnerability, - defenses, etc).

Two things you need to be careful of when leveraging an aura is (i) making the OAs (either primary monster or secondary) so punitive that it isn't worth risking provoking them when moving out of the aura's effect or (ii) making the aura so large as to be inescapable. Both of these serve to undermine the "catch-22" that you're going for.

Further as PSH notes above, they also ensure that a Solo or Elite will AoE threaten PCs even under a deployment of "lockdown" barrage.

Then, of course, there are thematic considerations when using them; eg do they fit the schtick of this monster/enemy? It makes sense for staying in melee proximity to have some punitive effect when engaging master swordsmen, berserkers, savage monsters laden with spikes, psionic creatures, swarms etc.

On topic( almost?): Has anyone else tried to capture the scale of epic accomplishments (fighting gods, re-arragning the world) but at heroic level numbers. It was a fairly short campain, I started at 4th and ended at 6th, but along the way I gave them access to extra powers and customization. They fought 40 foot tall genies, brought down three out of four "Insane Fish Gods" arrayed against them, and saved the world; just with much smaller numbers on their sheets (and mine).

A la Neverwinter Campaign Setting? I personally have not but the tier system is just a default that can easily be detached to support whatever sort of play you're looking for. The math of the system is tight and transparent enough to make for functional Epic play at the Heroic tier. You could easily enough just treat it as 13th Age does and just contract 4e play into 10 levels.

 

[Manbearcat]

So... if I ever run epic-tier 4e, basically I need to do lots of skill challenges, and punish failures with dangerous auras for monsters.

I would recommend lots of skill challenges throughout the game!

You bring up an interesting point that I've noted in Epic Tier however. At all tiers of play, Skill Challenges within combat have to have their action economy carefully considered by the GM. If you for all Primary Checks to be Standard Actions, you run the risk of the loss in the action economy game being too punitive to the point that the PCs are reluctant to engage the challenge. The risk:reward must be carefully assessed.

At the Epic Tier it gets even more difficult as the value of the Minor Action grows considerably because most PCs wil have various abilities (attacks/stances/utilities/sustain minor for zones et al) requiring Minor Actions for deployment or upkeep. Due to this, Skill Challenges within combat must be assessed even more carefully and the benefits of (even minor) actions spent advancing the Skill Challenge must be clear and present.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I would recommend lots of skill challenges throughout the game!

You bring up an interesting point that I've noted in Epic Tier however. At all tiers of play, Skill Challenges within combat have to have their action economy carefully considered by the GM. If you for all Primary Checks to be Standard Actions, you run the risk of the loss in the action economy game being too punitive to the point that the PCs are reluctant to engage the challenge. The risk:reward must be carefully assessed.

At the Epic Tier it gets even more difficult as the value of the Minor Action grows considerably because most PCs wil have various abilities (attacks/stances/utilities/sustain minor for zones et al) requiring Minor Actions for deployment or upkeep. Due to this, Skill Challenges within combat must be assessed even more carefully and the benefits of (even minor) actions spent advancing the Skill Challenge must be clear and present.

One rule I've seen at Sly Flourish that I've shamelessly stolen is to give in combat skill challenges a moderate standard action DC and a hard minor action DC... but if you fail the minor action check, you take damage. So you can be fast but risky.

The skill challenges are "supposed" to steal actions, so IMO make beating it worth it. One skill challenge I saw gave the boss damage reduction and regeneration and one other thing (remove if PCs succeed), so the PCs would want to do the challenge. I did that twice. The first time the battlefield was mostly open, and challenge locations at the "far end", and the boss was a controller who could immobilize PCs. They still did the challenge. The second time the battlefield was very cluttered, and the PCs ignored the challenge and simply "dealt with" the more durable boss.

 

[sabrinathecat]

I've been running a game of all-strikers. Aside from the minion heavy battles, from about lvl4 on, they do so much damage that nothing can stand up to them. Solos were almost a joke. It took lvl+2 to +4 encounters to threaten them. And if they won initiative or managed a surprise round (or worse:Both), it was over before it got started. And again, most battles only lasted 3-4 rounds.

 

[Manbearcat]

I've been running a game of all-strikers. Aside from the minion heavy battles, from about lvl4 on, they do so much damage that nothing can stand up to them. Solos were almost a joke. It took lvl+2 to +4 encounters to threaten them. And if they won initiative or managed a surprise round (or worse:Both), it was over before it got started. And again, most battles only lasted 3-4 rounds.

Swarms, (obviously) Minions, and control heavy components (Soldiers, Controllers, Zones, Auras, Challenging/Difficult Terrain, Hazards/Traps - especially proximity triggered) do the job in hampering Strikers who are trying to set up and deploy their nova damage.

My group sounds similar to yours and this still is up to the task at Epic Tier.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

If the strikers are that good at focus fire, they're probably ranged. I recommend lots of teleporting skirmishers. (They can teleport from cover to cover as they approach.)

 

[Yanko128]

Something I found to work really well is an aura that heals the creature, rather than damage the PCs. The way I do it is, if a PC in an aura regains hit points, the creature regains equal amount of hit points. Combine that with the creature dealing decent damage, and aura you cannot just shift out of, and it truly frightens my players. Even if the healing is not that significant, it has a great psychological effect.

 

[Manbearcat]

If the strikers are that good at focus fire, they're probably ranged. I recommend lots of teleporting skirmishers. (They can teleport from cover to cover as they approach.)

Thats a good call. Another solution to that problem is Obstacles for cover + Concealment + Lurkers/Skirmishers (like Quicklings) who can move/attack/move as a single Standard Action and gain Stealth.

 

[sabrinathecat]

If the strikers are that good at focus fire, they're probably ranged. I recommend lots of teleporting skirmishers. (They can teleport from cover to cover as they approach.)

Worse, they're mixed.
1 melee ranger
1 archer ranger
1 barbarian (mostly melee)
1 rogue (both)
1 warlock (the way it's built, both)
Tons of mobility

I did throw a custom monster at them which caused some concern: whipchain devas based on privateer press satyrx minis. I made them controllers who got a free attack whenever someone started or entered within 2 of them. Hit=grabbed. Hit by 2=restrained. Put 9 of them on the map, and it was in interesting battle (even though they were 2 levels below the party).

Warlock sight and whatever the Ranger equivalent pretty much neutered cover/concealment. And with his obscene base attack rolls, it only means the rouge needs an 8 instead of a 6 to hit. Heck, most of the time, he only needs a 3.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Worse, they're mixed.
1 melee ranger
1 archer ranger
1 barbarian (mostly melee)
1 rogue (both)
1 warlock (the way it's built, both)
Tons of mobility

That's ... a very strange party.

They look like they have no in-combat healing at all beyond potions. They're a little squishy though; only one (the barbarian) is tough, and I'm pretty sure a switch-hitting warlock must use Charisma as their key stat, not Con.

IME, even high-healing parties dread ongoing damage. To be scary though, there must be multiple types thrown around (perhaps archers that shoot poisoned arrows that inflict ongoing poison damage, and evil priests who inflict ongoing necrotic damage, etc). But I suppose the encounter would end too quickly for the ongoing damage to get scary.

My last campaign (ended at level 13) had lots of damage output. I found using multiple elites worked, or have the boss be able to redirect some attacks (either to allies, or against PCs) or create incentive not to insta-kill the boss (healing allies, "traps" that need to be shut down or they buff the boss's defenses, etc).

I did throw a custom monster at them which caused some concern: whipchain devas based on privateer press satyrx minis. I made them controllers who got a free attack whenever someone started or entered within 2 of them. Hit=grabbed. Hit by 2=restrained. Put 9 of them on the map, and it was in interesting battle (even though they were 2 levels below the party).

That's interesting. But IME you want to avoid all controller (or all any role) battles, if only for the variety. Which isn't to say I've never made it work, but only once or twice.

Something I found to work really well is an aura that heals the creature, rather than damage the PCs. The way I do it is, if a PC in an aura regains hit points, the creature regains equal amount of hit points. Combine that with the creature dealing decent damage, and aura you cannot just shift out of, and it truly frightens my players. Even if the healing is not that significant, it has a great psychological effect.

Can I clone you for my game? My current game (where I'm a DM) has a pacifist healer. I am SO stealing this idea!