What makes a fantasy 'journey' truly epic?

[Erebus Red]

So adventurers have gathered and are setting up to travel to the legendary lost city of 'whatever', but a huge journey must be undertaken to get there...

What role-playing elements make that long journey something that is truly stimulating and exciting?

 

[darkbard]

i'd love to see what answers this questions turns up. this is one of the most frustrating parts of the game as far as i'm concerned. fantasy novels and films are filled with scenes of imposing landscape: snow-capped mountains, dark forests, shattered ruins, raging rivers, you name it. but translating these elements into game elements is nigh impossible. typically, a journey in my campaigns involves the dm reading passages of florid description interspersed with the occasional fight with a monster or social interaction with a fellow traveler(s). not quite the same thing as an epic journey, is it?

 

[kengar]

There are some wonderful pieces of advice in the LOTR RPG by Decipher about making an epic adventure. I don't have the book with me, but here are a few observations of my own:

1. Usually things like scenery and terrain aren't going to mean a lot to the party in general. Sure, you may have one or two players that are interested in the flavor text, but unless it's affecting their rate of travel or they are taking damage from things like frostbite, quite often it's just so much fluff to the party. That's not to say you should skip the flavor text, but it's not necessarily going to set the tone by itself.
   
2. What makes these journeys epic in feel isn't necessarily the distance traveled, it's the hardships and challenges that must be overcome. These challenges aren't all necessarily combat. Getting a useful piece of information from an NPC, locating a hidden path through the swamp, etc. The difficulty here is that these challengees are -all too often- simply resolved by a quick die roll ("Okay, my Gather Information is +11, I take 20, what rumors do I find out?"). DMs need to keep things on a narrative level as much as possible. You're trying to make the campaign feel like a literary epic, then lean towards the story and away from the dice a bit. Have them roleplay it out and describe what they do a bit more. Roll the dice for them behind the screen when necessary.
   
3. Players should be encouraged to stay in character. XP should be geared towards the quest and achieving goals. Combat/CR experience should be greatly de-emphasized.
   
4. Make sure this is the kind of campaign your players want to play. Explain up front what kind of feel you are going for. They're supposed to have fun too; so if they are expected a dungeon-crawl, don't be surprised if they aren't helping support the epic mood.
   
5. Give them setbacks. Make them work for their progress. If they reach A Dwarf Door and none of them read Elvish, they're going to be out of luck until they go back and get a Comprehend Languages scroll, and even then they still need to solve the riddle.
   
6. Make sure the characters have good reasons for undertaking the quest. "Loot" does not qualify. Hoping to find lost treasure is all well and good, but lacks "epic" qualities. Maybe if they need the money for some purpose, then it will work.
   
7. Avoid too much bookkeeping except when relevant to the story. Don't make them measure every drop of water they drink unless they're crossing a desert.
   
8. Keep a tight rein on the magical resources you allow the party, especially items. You want the party to be relying on things like wits and knowledge and bravery more than a Big-@$$ sword to win through a challenge. A few key items can add flavor, but if it's overdone, they might lose sight of the goal amidst all the trinkets.
   
9. Have more than one way to move forward. You don't want to railroad the PCs, but nor do you want to trash your saga-in-the-making because they fail to find a secret door. If they fail their Search roll, have some other way for them to find out about the hidden passage (a partially burned map in a fireplace, etc.). Don't feed them the answers, but a backup clue or method will make life easier on you. Sometimes, of course, they simply must succeed; but that's normally reserved for "final battle" kinds of things.
   
10. Similar to above, try to avoid making any one creature or NPC the lynchpin to the story's success; especially for things like minor villains. If the minion keeps "miraculously" escaping despite good rolls and tactics by the players, they will feel resentful and railroaded (and justly so). Better that such things happen "behind the scenes" so that the party doesn't find out until later. i.e. Attacked by gnolls on road out of town. Party defeats them and searches the bodies. Finds a note with their descriptions, orders to kill them, and the bad guy's initials.
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[Erebus Red]

Thanks for all those considerations kengar - much appreciated.

Another tactic I'm employing is to create an interesting party dynamic in 'who' is undertaking the journey - differing objectives, possibly conflicting personalities etc. Hence the story of the characters relationships with each other will develop with the journey itself.

 

[Shadowlord]

I always try to play epic stories, that's what's fantasy RPG is about for me. Epic isn't about level 20+, it's about building a story (like in a book or film). Btw, epic rules-wise for me is level 10+.

No dungeon crawls, no simple looting. There must be a real motivation! Thus, the start is extremely important. PCs shoUld have a decent background of some sort and especially have a strong motivation. There should be equally a strong reason for the party getting together. Thus, don't ever get the PCs together by coincidence, don't ever let the PCs play for no other reason than "to get XP from combat and treasure" cos it's written like that in the books. NEVER !

I noticed early that since the players don't have anything else than their characters and the PCs are at the cenetr of the game, so should PC development & motivation play a major (if not the biggest) part in an epic RPG. Develop background (together) and come up with plot hooks based on this info. Don't overdo it though; it's dead boring & sad if you introduce for the 10th time an aunt or brother...

BE ORIGINAL yet keep it CONSISTENT !
There's a fine balance between those two that is the key to a solid story (and RPG). You should surprise the PCs from time to time (dig into their backgrounds for ex!) but don't frustrate them. If you overdo it, it will loose its mystery and all its impact.

All this needs a motivated group; the books won't help you much. In fact, too many rules will restrict the game.
DL is a perfect world for such play and their adventures were based on this idea. That's what I miss nowadays: some amazing epic adventures. There's only one or two for FR 3e, but they aren't even that epic.

 

[mmadsen]

i'd love to see what answers this questions turns up. this is one of the most frustrating parts of the game as far as i'm concerned. fantasy novels and films are filled with scenes of imposing landscape: snow-capped mountains, dark forests, shattered ruins, raging rivers, you name it. but translating these elements into game elements is nigh impossible. typically, a journey in my campaigns involves the dm reading passages of florid description interspersed with the occasional fight with a monster or social interaction with a fellow traveler(s). not quite the same thing as an epic journey, is it?

I agree with darkbard; it's surprisingly hard to bring many of these fantasy elements into the game (effectively). One problem kengar pointed out astutely: "The difficulty here is that these challenges are -- all too often -- simply resolved by a quick die roll."

A game isn't a movie, and it isn't a book. You can't rely on awe-inspiring imagery, and you better not pretend you write awe-inspiring prose either. You have to give the players interesting decisions to make; they have to interact with the setting. One roll against Wilderness Lore won't cut it.

 

[Cedric]

The people you meet along the way...

Keep the NPC's interesting people with interesting problems. The nice family who was moving to a village nearby but busted a wheel on the wagon...the players efforts to get the wagon wheel up and working so they can make it to the next town.

The daughter who falls for one of the players...

The son who wants to grow up to be a swordsman...

Then their utter shock when something like orcs attack and they see death firsthand. The realization from the girl that she could never love a man who killed so easily, even when killing orcs.

The understanding from the son that this is what being a swordsman means and the realization that this isn't the person he wants to be.

Then the young thief they meet, on the run from the city guard in the town they just left. Asks to ride along with the party if they don't mind. He'll eventually be caught up in his own lies...will they turn him in to the guard at the next town? Council him on his ways and set him free? or catch him with his hand in the wrong pocket and deal out the punishment of the sword.

These are just two examples...but always on a long, epic journey, it's the people you meet along the way that make the memories last....

Cedric

 

[LostSoul]

Character growth.

 

[Shadowdancer]

Lost Soul touched on what I feel is an important element of making a journey truly epic -- character growth. And I don't just mean more XP so they can go up levels.

The outward, physical journey should be paralled by an internal, spiritual journey the characters make. Things they see and things they do should cause them to change and grow in some manner. Doesn't have to be a big change. But they shouldn't remain static.

That's often hard to do in role-playing games if the players just see the journey as an interlude until they get to the real adventure.

"The journey is in the trip, not in the destination."

 

[green slime]

Loss.

All too often overlooked.

And herein lies the RP conundrum of playing D&D.

We need to create living backgrounds for the PCs. We don't want them to be readily replaceable.

But there must be sacrifices and loss, on the Epic journey, otherwise it is without meaning.

Risk with the danger of permanent character death. In a literary work this is easily handled (Boromir in LotR). In a RPG with plot arcs involving the PCs, this is achieved with more difficulty. And in a game with raise dead and the like it is patently gone. Death becomes merely a small, insignificant pothole on the motorway to more riches. Not even a speed bump.