What mechanical value should bards have (sans intrinsic magic)?

[System Ufera]

Hello! I'm designing my own PnP RPG, and in preparation for the next playtesting campaign, I'm designing new content according to what the players want to play. One of the desired character concepts among my players, however, is a bard. Now, unlike in DnD, my game won't give bards intrinsic magic - in fact, as of right now, there aren't really any "classes," since the way characters are designed is more like GURPS (you can pick and choose from individual features you want your character to have, and you obtain those features by spending XP) - but I digress.

Like most games, there is combat in my game, and the next campaign is going to have a significant amount of time dedicated to combat (it's set during a revolution, after all). Bards, in my game, are defined by their knowledge of culture and history and their artistic ability, and while it would make sense for a knowledgeable character to pick up a few spells or direct allies toward enemy weak spots, and for a charismatic/willful character to inspire allies, I'm still not entirely sure that all of that would allow for a dedicated "bard" character to be balanced in terms of effectiveness in combat. The applications of solving this conundrum are even greater once you consider the fact that I've designed an entire race to be especially good at "bardic" pursuits.

As of right now, I'm thinking any bard adventurer would be well served to pick up a secondary set of abilities, or even have the whole "bard" aspect of the character be secondary, but I still would like to explore what sort of things would mechanically benefit a bard character enough to make a dedicated bard character viable. So... any ideas?

Another thing I'd like to point out is that the player who wants to play a bard wants to play a melancholy, depressing, "emo" sort of bard. Any ideas for what mechanics can be designed for that sort of character? I mean, a depressing bard doesn't seem like it would have the obvious ability to inspire allies, so... yeah.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

Inspiration is the obvious one, so if that doesn't fit, then it might be better for it to be a secondary aspect to a character. Kind of like how 5E has classes and backgrounds, where your class tells you how to fight and your background tells you what else you can do.

 

[System Ufera]

Inspiration is the obvious one, so if that doesn't fit, then it might be better for it to be a secondary aspect to a character. Kind of like how 5E has classes and backgrounds, where your class tells you how to fight and your background tells you what else you can do.

I'm afraid I'm not familiar with 5e. I figured I'd wait for the system to get more developed (and cheaper) before I got into it. I think I get the gist of what you're saying, though.

 

[GMMichael]

One of the desired character concepts among my players, however, is a bard.

Bards, in my game, are defined by their knowledge of culture and history and their artistic ability,

I'm still not entirely sure that all of that would allow for a dedicated "bard" character to be balanced in terms of effectiveness in combat.

I've designed an entire race to be especially good at "bardic" pursuits.

First you have to figure out what a bard is. Is it a class, in-game occupation, or both? What does "bard" mean to the NPCs?

You have a few sources for this information: your player, the occupation, and the race.

Once you've defined "bard," you can give it mechanical benefits. My two cents: if the bard isn't casting spells, his only combat benefit will be motivating comrades. Not everyone has to be good in combat.

Oh yeah, have fun game designing! If you want any ideas, just follow the URL in my signature.

 

[Tonguez]

First you have to figure out what a bard is. Is it a class, in-game occupation, or both? What does "bard" mean to the NPCs?

You have a few sources for this information: your player, the occupation, and the race.

Once you've defined "bard," you can give it mechanical benefits. My two cents: if the bard isn't casting spells, his only combat benefit will be motivating comrades. Not everyone has to be good in combat.

Oh yeah, have fun game designing! .

Thats my question too, what is the Bard in your world - since without magic the DnD Bard is really just a charismatic rogue with a few lore skills.

But lets look at what a bard does he's got light weapons, can inspire/buff others, debuff/impede enemies, knows stuff and has good charisma and often dexterity.

Personally without Magic I'd empahsis the Inspire/buffs and debuffs (a taunt ability which makes the opponent act without thinking etc) and also give the bard something like the Swashbucklers Panache - explained as the bards performance skill applied to light weapons. Also use Paizos Panache Feats and along the same lines I'd add a few other feats/talents that can be used to distract or misdirect opponents too.

So essentially what you have is a charismatic swashbuckler whose performance - verbal and physical can inspire his allies and distract and confuse his enemies.

 

[System Ufera]

First you have to figure out what a bard is. Is it a class, in-game occupation, or both? What does "bard" mean to the NPCs?

You have a few sources for this information: your player, the occupation, and the race.

Once you've defined "bard," you can give it mechanical benefits. My two cents: if the bard isn't casting spells, his only combat benefit will be motivating comrades. Not everyone has to be good in combat.

Oh yeah, have fun game designing! If you want any ideas, just follow the URL in my signature.

As I said, my game does not have "classes," but rather uses a GURPS-like progression system where independent abilities are purchased with XP. That said, a "bard" would be like a storyteller, musician, or someone with a similarly art-heavy profession, especially (but not necessarily) focused on stories. A lot of the tasks as a bard would probably rely on three attributes in my game: "Knowledge," "Willpower," and "Charisma" (the latter two are separate, since "Willpower" is more force of personality and passion, whereas "Charisma" is more social finesse).

Thats my question too, what is the Bard in your world - since without magic the DnD Bard is really just a charismatic rogue with a few lore skills.

But lets look at what a bard does he's got light weapons, can inspire/buff others, debuff/impede enemies, knows stuff and has good charisma and often dexterity.

Personally without Magic I'd empahsis the Inspire/buffs and debuffs (a taunt ability which makes the opponent act without thinking etc) and also give the bard something like the Swashbucklers Panache - explained as the bards performance skill applied to light weapons. Also use Paizos Panache Feats and along the same lines I'd add a few other feats/talents that can be used to distract or misdirect opponents too.

So essentially what you have is a charismatic swashbuckler whose performance - verbal and physical can inspire his allies and distract and confuse his enemies.

I'm not sure if this wasn't clear, but my game isn't based on DnD's mechanics; it's pretty much made from scratch. In my game, what you're describing is like a mixture of bardic elements and elements typically associated with rogues. That said, "panache" would be a good idea for a character who is good at both things; still, the player has yet to indicate that he wants to play anything other than a bard.

 

[Tonguez]

I'm not sure if this wasn't clear, but my game isn't based on DnD's mechanics; it's pretty much made from scratch. In my game, what you're describing is like a mixture of bardic elements and elements typically associated with rogues. That said, "panache" would be a good idea for a character who is good at both things; still, the player has yet to indicate that he wants to play anything other than a bard.

Yep I got the GURPs reference, hence the reason you need to be clear on what Bard means in your world especially since the ideas of storyteller, musician have limited combat utility.

The ideas I was suggesting would need to be worked into advantages and skills that would work in your system for a Bard-like character.

Inspire and Taunt are required powers, and I'd allow a subtle voice advantage so the Bard can use the their music unheard by enemies. The same subtle voice might also explain things like a suggestion ability where the Bard affects the oppoennts emotions or actually plants a thought in an opponents mind. Even an emo-bard can use the subtle voice to make everyone depressed and lose morale.
Panache works out from the physical "performance" focus of Bards. Equally perhaps their storyteller focus could allow them to identify a monsters "known weaknesses" and thus grant a tactical bonus.

just some more thoughts...

 

[MarkB]

Apparently they can be a useful emergency food source in winter.

And there was much rejoicing.

 

[Herobizkit]

Traditional RPG's build around the Big Three archetypes: Warrior, Rogue, and Spellcaster.

Where GURPS is so free-form, it's up to the player to decide he's a Bard by representing his character with Feats, Talents, Advantages/Disadvantages and Skills.

The 5e D&D Bard dips into all three archetypes. They're now what's considered a full spell-caster (getting spells starting at level 1 with a regular increase per level) as well as having a very deep Skills focus (getting a free flat increase to non-trained skills, getting a large selection of Trained skills, being able to double the proficiency value of Two trained skills). Yes, they also sing and boost allies in (by increasing their ability to hit targets) and out of combat (by boosting allies' skill checks).

D&D Bards also have access to Medium armor skills, up to and including a Breastplate, and are generally familiar with simple weapons and most swords. As they advance into their specialties, the have the option to focus on Lore (by expanding their spell selection to other classes) or Skald (by gaining skill in martial weapons and maybe also shields).

In a game such as GURPS, a Bard would likely be a character with levels in Attractive and/or Voice talents and usually the Gregarious, Lecherous, and/or Compulsive Carousing disadvantages. She'd have mostly Social skills, perhaps expanding into Magical Lore and/or Casting skills in Illusion, Charm and Information-type magic. She might be an Archer, or a daring Swashbuckler, or a barbaric Skald with a Claymore. That's all up to the player.

Bards have generally been portrayed as support/social classes, and in some cases, can also be an official social Rank with privileges. In some games, bards have rights not unlike a Knight of the Crown - to be offered lodging where available, always welcome at the Nobles' tables, and perhaps even have a right to never be struck on pain of criminal punishment.

If your player wants to be an emo bard, all he'd really need is talents in (bad) poetry.

 

[System Ufera]

Okay, the purpose of this thread has become a bit less urgent, since the player in question has changed his mind. He now wants to play an offense-oriented wizard. Some of my other players have yet to tell me what they want to play, but either way, I'm still open to suggestions for bards. Now, I'm thinking that the bard's abilities would be under "Ploys," the same category as the abilities for character concepts similar to the DnD 4e Warlord. The Ploy category would itself be separated into three categories: "Inspiration" (based on Willpower and the Diplomacy Skill), "Mockery" (based on Charisma and the Deception skill), and "Tactic" (based on Knowledge and the "Strategy and Tactics" skill). The first two would be well-suited to the Bard concept, and the last would also fit somewhat (perhaps identifying a weak point would be a Tactic, since it's based on Knowledge?). This thread already has some nice suggestions, but I'm still open to more.