What metamagic feat can your Arcane caster not live without?

[Thanee]

Actually, no, it doesn't - no moreso than Eschew Materials did.

Well, I disagree there. Eschew Materials makes sense as a general feat, as it changes the way you cast spells in general.

Energy Affinity/Substitution changes how one particular spell is done, of course if you make a feat, that automatically changes all your energy spells to that one type, that would make sense as a general feat.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

All keeping them metamagics does, is, maintain the current abnormally-high pressure for Sorcerors to strive for the Archmage PrC. The Mastery of Elements ability is alreadysuperior in being able to pick ANY of the elements on the fly, but for a Sorceror ... avoiding the FRA casting itme is even more attractive.

Well, it does have a pretty steep cost, too. What's the point of the Archmage PrC otherwise, if every ability is available as a feat.

I don't really have a problem with the FRA for the sorcerer, it's also highly superior for the sorcerer compared to the wizard, so the cost is just fine. And wizards should need to prepare their spells with the proper choice, as that is the disadvantage they get.

For these reasons, the Archmage PrC is a lot more interesting for wizards, actually, than for sorcerers.

Also, Energy Substitution makes sense as a metamagic rod, but Eschew Materials would be kinda odd (as is Silent Spell, really, but that one is a bit of a special case, since it would be equally odd as a general feat ).

Bye
Thanee

 

[ruleslawyer]

Well, it does have a pretty steep cost, too. What's the point of the Archmage PrC otherwise, if every ability is available as a feat.

Well, MoE is far, far better than ES/EA. Actually, the usual pattern for PrCs is to require a feat or ability as a prereq and then give out a massively improved version of that feat or ability as a class ability of the PrC, so arguably, archmage could even require ES/EA for the MoE ability and still probably have that ability be worth it!

For these reasons, the Archmage PrC is a lot more interesting for wizards, actually, than for sorcerers.

I will disagree with this; I think that given the spell slots-for-abilities system with which the archmage works, and the ability to get around known spell limitations by using Arcane Fire and MoE, the sorcerer gains potentially more from the class. OTOH, the sorcerer has to spend more to get in; as Pax said,

Yeah, but [Archmage]'s a stone colt b*tch to qualify for with a Sorceror.

Nonetheless, I agree with you regarding ES/EA as a metamagic feat, Thanee, because a) the FRA casting time is usually not a big deal for direct damage energy spells, since a sorc doesn't usually need to cast those and move in the same round, and b) ES/EA dramatically increases a sorc's spell repertoire. Moreover, given the usual idea behind metamagic feats vs. general feats, if ES/EA were a general feat, it would logically affect all the caster's applicable spells (like Eschew Materials), in which case a wizard wouldn't need to prepare his spells differently to gain the feat's benefits, which would make ES/EA better for the wizard than the sorc.

 

[Plane Sailing]

To my mind the biggest problem with energy substitution et al. is that it plain doesn't make sense with the way that energy side-effects are handled in D&D. It would only make some sense if energy had a consistent side effect and changing the energy changed the side effect. This is done to some extent with psionic energy powers, but Elements of Magic from ENworld was the only thing I've seen that really did it right.

 

[Thanee]

I will disagree with this; I think that given the spell slots-for-abilities system with which the archmage works, and the ability to get around known spell limitations by using Arcane Fire and MoE, the sorcerer gains potentially more from the class.

Ok, the sorcerer has more spell slots, thus the lost ones don't hit her so hard, like the wizard. OTOH, the other requirements are tougher, so that is just fair, I guess.

But what I meant is, that the wizard simply gets more mileage out of the abilities.

Arcane Fire - the Sorcerer basically can already do that, since she can use all her spells for attacks. Sure it has some nice side benefits, but I'd consider those rather minor, really. The wizard, however, cannot do that. He can now give up useless prepared spells to deal damage, thus increasing options during the day.

Mastery of Elements/Shaping - superior forms of available feats, but the sorcerer can already do something similar with the feats, while the wizard has to prepare the spells beforehand and does not have this versatility. Thus more versatility is gained.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Shard O'Glase]

The vast majority of metamagic feats suck and suck hard. Oh zippy I can take a feat so I can cast a spell that's modified to a level where its now balanced with the spells of that level. So um why did I spend a feat??

Extend spell: sucks, there aren't near enough spells with a duration to make a 1 level boost worth it.
The range boost one: sucks unbeleiveably in 3.5 a feat and +1 spell elvel so my range is a bit better wow designers were on the short bus with this one.
still spell: sucks hard, all you need if your afraid of grapples is silent and silent also handles stealth consideraitons.
silent: well it is ok if you're a mage/stealth type I don't think its worth it just for a silent d-door to escape a graple or a silence field or whatever. I think its worth it for a mage/rogue who proable want to make 0 noise while there sneaking around.
empower: this one has some oomph, at every time after 3rd spell level when you gain a new spell level a empowered level in yoyr highest and 2nd highest slot out damages other spells at that level. For exaple at 9th level level an empowered fireball does 9d6g(x1.5) cone of cold just 9d6. Now our 13th level cone of cold is doing 13d6 and the empowered fireball basically 15d6 but with its lower DC its not any better damage wise. Its still better because cones suck.
maximize: similar to empower but you only need 1 of them and I think empower is more versatile so its just a crappy empower.
Quicken: hey at +2 spell levels sure at +3 spell levels a bit weak but maybe, at +4 spell levels it sucks, yeah sure you can use it and it may help a bit in a fight but usually not as much as the +4 spell levels are worth and certainly not hoe much a feat and +4 spell levels are worth.
Widen spell: hey, hey hooo um yeah take this one its giggle worth it.

Metamagic feats are a nice attempt at a magic system modifier but overall it sucks.

 

[welby]

I'm kind of with Shard O'Glase on this one, which is what prompted me to start this thread in the first place. I didn't really see any metamagic feats that I really wanted. I ended up going with empower spell, but I wish there were more metamagic feats that I really wanted. Maybe complete divine will fix this, or at least propose an alternate system to metamagic feats.

Oh well, I guess I'll just shop around for a PrC class that loses metamagic feats, gains some cool abilities, and has full spell progression.

 

[Thanee]

Extent Spell: It's only nice with the right concept and within the right level range, so all in all not too great. The Favored Soul character I've recently written up has Extend Spell and it's probably the best choice for her. But that character is also at the perfect level (12th).

Silent Spell: For many caster this is essentially an extra level, since you lose one, when you get resurrected.

Quicken Spell: +2 levels!? You must play a different game, than I do. Even with +4 levels it is mighty powerful. At higher levels, of course (11/12+).

Empower Spell: Highly potent as has been pointed out enough already. Better than Maximize IMHO.

My Sorceress currently has Silent Spell (was useful quite a few times already, and it it's useful, it's really useful) and Empower Spell (is used multiple times each day normally). Next level (Sorcerer 6th / Incantatrix 4th) I'll get Heighten Spell, which will probably see as much use as Empower.

After that, it grows a bit weaker. Quicken Spell is the next, but as an Incantatrix and later with Arcane Preparation, this can be put to good use, even if it cannot be used normally. Even with that restriction, it will be probably one of the most powerful metamagic feats for my character! After that, Twin Spell, or maybe Chain Spell (hope there will be a clarified and better working version in Complete Arcane).

And I'm constantly looking for a metamagic rod of energy substitution. Having only fire-based energy spells (Scorching Ray and Fireball) is a bit of a disadvantage. Altho, she is not really an evoker (prohibited school Evocation since 7th).

For wizards, I don't think there are so many metamagic feats, that would be used a lot. Empower and Quicken mostly, and Silent Spell is worth it for the emergency Dimension Door alone.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Extend Spell:
You're really missing the usefulness of this feat. It only comes into its own at mid-high levels, however, there it is very useful. (Even more so for a sorceror than a wizard).
Hour/level mage spells worth extending: Endure Elements, Mage Armor, False Life, Rope Trick (at low levels), Greater Magic Weapon, Detect Scrying, Rary's Mneomnic Enhancer, Energy Buffer (T&B), Energy Immunity, Mind Blank
Long duration Cleric spells worth extending: Endure Elements, Delay Poison, Shield Other, Deeper Darkness, Magic Vestment, Spikes, Greater Magic Weapon, Hero's Feast, Energy Immunity.

All of these can be extended to last all day or for several days. A wizard with an empty slot or a sorceror can simply use up unused spell slots at the end of the day to have the spells active in the next day withoug costing any spell slots then. A spell that lasts longer than 24 hours extended can be very helpful when preparing for an assault.

Extend is also useful on 10 min/level spells. By 12th level, See Inivisibility, Alter Self, Resist Energy, Daylight, Magic Circle vs. Evil, Keen Edge, Flame Arrow, Heroism, etc last 2 hours. Extending them to last four hours makes it practical for a sorceror (or a wizard with pearls of power) to have them active all day for travel purposes (which is extremely useful in the case of See Invisibility--no more ambushes by invisible or ethereal opponents) or to cast them on everyone and be confident that they'll last through as much of a dungeon as the party can handle pushing through without rest.

And it's not as though the 12th level sorceror or wizard was going to be using those 3rd and 4th level slots during combat anyway.

Enlarge Spell:
OK, this one pretty much sucks. A sorceror might be able to make use of it with ray spells (close range IS pretty limiting), teleport, etc. but really it's not worth it.

Still Spell:
You need to know what this one is for. It's the anti-arcane spell failure feat. By effectively sacrificing two caster levels (actually, a little bit less than that, since long duration and no-somatic spells aren't effected), your fighter/wizard CAN wear fullplate and a tower shield and cast spells without ASF. The ability to have a weapon in one hand and a shield in the other while casting spells and to be unfazed by grapples is a bonus. It's also a decent feat for sneaky sorcerors who want to cast spells without beng obvious about it. A still, silent spell is rather hard to detect.

Silent Spell: it's got its uses--specifically for rogue/wizards and rogue/sorcerors and people REALLY worried about being grappled and pinned. It will also occasionally come in handy when you end up in a zone of silence or are deafened. However, while its somewhat useful uses are more prevalent than still spell, I actually rate it lower since none of its uses are quite as useful as the ignore ASF feature of Still Spell.

Empower:
Even you're not arguing that this one is good.

Maximize:
Some people will prefer this to Empower because it's more reliable and it's usually better to have a reliably good result than a potentially great or potentially sucky result.

Quicken:
At +4 spell levels, this is only worth it for some spells, but for those spells, it is well worth it. For wizards, a Magic Missile, Ray of Enfeeblement, Scorching Ray, Mirror Image, Haste, Fireball, etc in the same round as you cast a 5th-8th level spell can be the difference between a difficult combat and a cakewalk. "So the enemy wizard is over there. I cast disintegrate. He lives? Lets see how he deals with a quickened scorching ray. Oh good, he's dead before he did anything to us. Next."

Widen:
You're right. At +2 levels, this one is laughable. It might have been decent at +1 level but there you go.

Sculpt Spell (T&B):
This is a very good feat and might well be worth it even at +2 levels. At +1 level, it's excellent.

Energy Affinity/Energy Substitution:
I think this is often overrated but it's still a pretty darn good feat--especially for sorcerors.

 

[Eraslin]

I'm a huge fan of both Extend Spell and Chain Spell. 1 7th level spell and the whole party has +4/+5 weapons/arrows and backup weapons for the entire day.

As long as you have a relaxed DM, chained shatter and chained dispel magic are also very awsome. One chained shatter and you can take a tonne of mooks out of the battle. Chained dispel magic combined with arcane sight is also pretty awsome.

Mind, I still play in a game that's using 3.0 rules so that's why I like Extend spell. Nothing like prepping for a big battle one morning by casting a tonne of extended buff spells the night before...

-Eraslin