What Quickened Spell-Like Abilities for Mystic-Thurge/Archmage?

[Brisk-sg]

Hey All,

I am playing in a 3.5 conversion of the Night Below. We are currently fighting in the city of the Glasspool, and progressing rapidly due to fighting very dangerous opponents (we took out a CR 19 Mindflayer last night). One of my characters is a Mystic Theurge (Druid/Conjurer) that I am going to progress into an Archmage at 17th lvl. I am trying to look forward and plan my spell and feat acquisition to make me most effective after we defeat the city. It is likely that we will get to lvl 17 or 18 before we move on to the 3rd book. Before the campaign is done we will likely all be epic level characters.

My character, Thalos Burk, is currently 13th level. I plan to use the Archmage prestige class from level 17-20. For High Arcana I will likely take Mastery of Shaping (cost 1 lvl 6 slot), and 3 Spell-like Abilities (using all 3 of my non-bonus lvl 5 slots). For the spell-like abilities I am strongly considering getting the Quicken Spell Metamagic feat at lvl 15, and make each of the Spell-like Abilities quickened spell abilities of spells 3rd to 5th lvl. I will be sacrificing some good spell slots for this, but we are currently fighting between 20-40 opponents at a time, with at least 4 enemy spell casters per battle. An extra spell a round would be very useful.

My character is the groups utility caster and enfeebler. He specializes in blocking off sections of enemies (this has started to get difficult due to dispel happy enemies), facilitating retreats (via teleport, fly, ect), enfeebling enemies, and summoning creatures to help in battles. I specialize in the Conjuration School, and can not cast spells from Necromancy or Illusion. Our group has 7 characters, with a sorcerer who specializes in artillery, and a cleric who handles buffs and healing.

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Thalos Burk
Medium-size Male Human
Druid3 Conjurer3 Mystic Theurge7
Hit Dice: (3d8)+(3d4)+(7d4)+26
Hit Points: 67
Initiative: +0
Speed: Walk 30'
AC: 13
Attacks: Quarterstaff +3 +8/+3; Sickle +2 +7/+2
Damage: Quarterstaff +3 1d6+2; Sickle +2 1d6+1
Special Qualities: +2 bonus to Spellcraft when learning Conjuration, Nature Sense (Ex), Trackless Step (Ex), Wild Empathy (Ex), Woodland Stride (Ex), Familiar (Falcon)
Saves: Fort: +8, Refl: +4, Will: +14
Abilities: Str 8 (-1), Dex 10 (+0), Con 14 (+2), Int 22 (+6), Wis 16 (+3), Cha 9 (-1)
Skills: Concentration 18; Craft (Alchemy) 14; Decipher Script 12; Diplomacy 2; Handle Animal 3; Knowledge (Arcana) 22; Knowledge (Dungeoneering) 10; Knowledge (Nature) 15; Knowledge (Religion) 22; Listen 12; Sense Motive 19; Spellcraft 27; Spot 15; Survival 8;
Feats: Alertness, Armor Proficiency (Light), Armor Proficiency (Medium), Augment Summoning, Greater Spell Focus (Conjuration, Enchantment), Scribe Scroll, Shield Proficiency, Skill Focus (Spellcraft), Spell Focus (Conjuration, Enchantment)
Challenge Rating: 13
Alignment: Lawful Neutral
Possessions: Boots of Levitation; Kranin's Regenerating Scroll; Kranin's Crystal Lenses; Outfit (Scholar's); Quarterstaff +3; Ring of Protection +3; Scroll (Cure Light Wounds); Scroll (Cure Moderate Wounds); Scroll (Cure Serious Wounds); Scroll (Dispel Magic); Scroll (Globe of Invulnerability, Lesser); Sickle +2; Silver Scroll Case

Druid - Spells: 6/5/5/4/3/2, Wizard - Spells: 4+1/6+1/6+1/4+1/4+1/3+1

Known Wizard Spells:
Level 0: Acid Splash, Arcane Mark, Dancing Lights, Daze, Detect Magic, Detect Poison, Flare, Light, Mage Hand, Mending, Message, Open/Close, Prestidigitation, Ray of Frost, Read Magic, Resistance
Level 1: Enlarge Person, Expeditious Retreat, Feather Fall, Grease, Identify, Mage Armor, Magic Missile, Obscuring Mist, Summon Monster I
Level 2: Acid Arrow, Eagle's Splendor, Glitterdust, Hideous Laughter, Knock, Scorching Ray, See Invisibility, Web,
Level 3: Dispel Magic, Fly, Hold Person, Lightning Bolt, Slow, Stinking Cloud, Suggestion
Level 4: Black Tentacles, Confusion, Polymorph, Wall of Ice
Level 5: Feeblemind, Hold Monster, Teleport, Wall of Force
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What spells would you take as Quickened Spell-Like Abilities? Do you think this is worthwhile in a heavy combat campaign against powerful opponents where you are often outnumbered by enemy casters?

What spells should I take before I get to lvl 17?

Do you think it wise to put my next two Ability Score Increases in Intelligence to Increase the DCs of my wizard spells and get bonus 7th & 3rd wizard spells, or to increase my Wisdom to get a single lvl 7 druid spell and a bonus 4th lvl druid spell?

Any other suggestions?


Thanks
-Josh

 

[Thanee]

Played that one, too, with 3.0 characters, but we ended up as "only" level 15 after the campaign, though it certainly was pretty tough. Those mind flayers were a pain.

Anyways, I'd increase Int and try to aquire an item to push Wis.

No idea about the spell-like ability. Why are those quickened, anyways? I mean, I have read the above, but what does it mean? How do you make those spell-like abilities quickened with the Quicken Spell feat?

And you don't have Practiced Spellcaster yet (Complete Divine), get that ASAP.

The sorcerer might want to pick up Firebrand from Magic of Faerûn.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Brisk-sg]

Played that one, too, with 3.0 characters, but we ended up as "only" level 15 after the campaign, though it certainly was pretty tough. Those mind flayers were a pain.

Anyways, I'd increase Int and try to aquire an item to push Wis.

No idea about the spell-like ability. Why are those quickened, anyways? I mean, I have read the above, but what does it mean? How do you make those spell-like abilities quickened with the Quicken Spell feat?

And you don't have Practiced Spellcaster yet (Complete Divine), get that ASAP.

Bye
Thanee

We are only using the core 3.5 books for the campaign, so no Complete Divine allowed sadly.

The Spell-Like Ability High Arcana that an Archmage can get allows the Archmage to permanently prepare one of his arcane spells as a spell-like ability that can be used twice per day. Per the description "The spell-like ability normally uses a spell slot of the spell's level, although the archmage can choose to make a spell modified by a metamagic feat into a spell-like ability at the appropriate spell level."

One nice thing about spell-like abilities is they have no verbal, somatic, or material component (for Spell-like Ability High Arcana any expensive spell component requires you to expend 10 times the worth in xp though).

A quickened spell-like ability would be handy as I would get two castings of the spell that don't require an action, does not provoke an attack of oppurtunity, requires no verbal or somatic component, and cannot be counterspelled.

 

[Pyrex]

Given your spell list, you should seriously consider Dispel Magic, Black Tentacles and either Wall of Ice or Wall of Force.

Other spells to consider would be Dimensional Anchor, Dismissal and possibly Telekinesis.

 

[sledged]

Doh! Another one suckered into the Archmage PrC just for some spell-like abilities. You would have been better off trading those two Spell Focus feats for Still Spell and Silent Spell. Then you could have used that Skill Focus feat for Innate Spell (PGtF), which works the similar to the archmage's spell-like ability except that (a) it only costs you one slot instead of two, and (b) you get to use the spell-like ability three times a day instead of two. If you want it quickened you get Quicken Spell-like Ability from the MM. The archmage's spell-like ability is not worth it, even if you're not allowed to use the Player's Guide to Faerun. It costs you two slots to cast it two times unless you burn a higher level slot. The only real benefit is that you don't have to rely on verbal and somatic components, and you don't have to prepare the spell. Just go ahead an prepare the spell with the Quickened Metamagic feat. You have the option of swiching out a different quickened spell the next time you rest.

That being said, there are features of the Archmage that are worth taking: mastery of counterspelling is good if you have Reactive Counterspell (also PGtF), and especially in epic levels if you get Epic Counterspll (you guessed it! PGtF). I also like mastery of shaping, mastery of elements... In fact all the abilities I like except spell-like ability.

 

[Brisk-sg]

I will likey be avoiding Dispel Magic because my Caster level is 3 levels below the other casters in our party, who handle most of the dispelling that is needed. I agree that Evard's Black Tentacles and Wall of Force would be good choices as they are usefull and scale well at higher levels.

I wasn't suckered into Archmage simply because of spell-like abilities Sledged. As the game has evolved and we are getting into the meat of the campaign, my ideas for what to take have changed. Initially I was planning on taking Arcane Reach, Mastery of Elements, and Mastery of Shaping, and only one Spell-like Ability used on a 9th level spell (cost one 5th and one 9th lvl slot). But since I don't use too much in the way of artillery at this point, Mastery of Elements wont be as usefull, and Arcane Reach doesn't have the range I need for the scale of our battles.

We are only using the CORE 3.5 books, so I cant use the PGtF, and I have not looked at that book yet so I am not sure what is in there. The two greater spell focus's that I took are way more valuable then Silent and Still spell to me. You are right, I could just take Quicken spell and memorize quickened versions... which would give me more flexibility. But to be honest my character has a ton of extra spells for utility due to being a Mystic Thurge. I figure I might as well expend a 5th lvl spell slot and a higher level spell slot to get the equivilent of 2 of the higher level spell slots. And I figure I might as well get 6 quickened spell-like abilities at the cost of 3 5th lvl slots and 3 higher then 5th level slots. That will give me 6 rounds of two spells per round.

 

[EvilGM]

A little background on my views here... I'm currently playing a Wizard(Necro)
5/Incantatrix 13/Archmage 5 in an epic campaign, so I have a little experience with what you're going through.

What spells would you take as Quickened Spell-Like Abilities?
Probably none, but since you seem set on this lets look at some possibilities (in no particular order):

- Wall of Force is good (uber in 3.0). If you're anything like me you'll cast a bunch of these a day (quickened ones are real nice).
- Feeblemind would be an ok choice with all the casters you take on (unless, of course, they are packing Spell Turning). I would not quicken this.
- Time Stop twice a day for a 5th and a 9th level slot woohoo! This would give you valuable time to dictate the battlefield and summon allies. Obviously, you could not quicken this.

Do you think this is worthwhile in a heavy combat campaign against powerful opponents where you are often outnumbered by enemy casters?
Based on your role, it could work.

What spells should I take before I get to lvl 17?
You seem real low on spells known. I would definitely spend alot of gold on expanding your spellbooks. You said 17th level but I'm going to include 9th level spells as well.
These spells are based on the role you specified.

9 - Time Stop, Dominate Monster, Summon Monster IX, Etherealness
8 - Mind Blank, Greater Prying Eyes, Discern Location
7 - Reverse Gravity, Spell Turning
6 - Disintegration, Repulsion, Greater Dispel Magic, Globe of Invulnerability, Analyze Dweomer
5 - Telekinesis, Wall of Stone
4 - Dimensional Anchor
3 - Haste, Wind Wall, Clairaudience/Clairvoyance, Sleet Storm
2 - Gust of Wind, Protection from Arrows
1 - Shield

There are some nice mass enchantment spells, but I'm not very familiar with which is better (hold, charm, etc.) Also, a few of these are druid spells as well so you could prepare them that way too.

Do you think it wise to put my next two Ability Score Increases in Intelligence to Increase the DCs of my wizard spells and get bonus 7th & 3rd wizard spells, or to increase my Wisdom to get a single lvl 7 druid spell and a bonus 4th lvl druid spell?
Definitely Intelligence.

Any other suggestions?
Get Arcane Fire! This is the most powerful ability of the Archmage class... supernatural ability, typeless damage, longish range (440'-600'), no AoO, no concentration checks, no SR, no save, convert ALL your spells into damage (even 0-level spells will do your Archmage level in d6s). This ability has saved my bacon many many times. So it costs a 9th-level spell slot whoopity doo!

If you need long range spells, think about taking the Enlarge Spell feat. For a +1 level increase your spell can have double it's normal range.
Alternatively, you could find a Greater Metamagic Rod of Enlarge (24,500gp) that would let you enlarge three spells of 9th lvl or lower per day (or 11,000gp for 6th lvl or lower). I would recommend storing this in a Glove of Storing (10,000gp).

The spells you currently have really don't lend themselves to shaping (ala Mastery of Shaping Archmage ability). Are you planning on picking up more spells to make this "purchase" worthwhile?

Mastery of Counterspelling might be a viable choice considering all the enemy spellcasters you encounter. Its too bad you don't have access to some of the other counterspelling feats that would make this a truely awesome ability.

Invest in a Ring of Counterspells (4000gp) and put a Feeblemind (or Greater Dispel Magic if you run with a lot of buffs up) in it.

Blessed Books (12,000gp) must be purchased!

Handy Haversacks (2000gp) are... well, handy.

Lastly, a Cube of Force (62,000gp) is always useful.

 

[Brisk-sg]

Thanks for all the feedback and suggestions.

We are not allowed to buy any Magic Items in the game. I had actually been running a Night Below Campaign for our group but got real burned out doing it. When we restarted half a year later, our new DM for the campaign (who has played through most of the game 3 times since second edition, either as a DM or a player, this is his first time DMing 3rd edition, and he is doing damn good) decided to not allow the purchase of magic items. The reason is you get mass amounts of gold (Over 300k in gold alone before 10th lvl) and magic items in the game. When I was running it I was allowing most WOTC books, and allowed purchase of magic items at 50% markup and it was getting out of hand by the time we ended. I cannot purchase most spells as I can't go to a shop for it. I would have to find a friendly NPC listed in the Night Below and negotiate to copy out of their spell book. I am hoping to find some Arcane scrolls in the city, none yet worth a darn.

And I just realized I do have haste, though it is not listed in my write up here.

Timestop would be good for the 9th lvl slot. At 20th lvl I will have to decide between one of the following 3 things to use my non-bonus 9th lvl slot on:
1. Timestop (I agree, very good spell for summoning and control)
2. Arcane Fire (Never thought of the 0-lvl spell conversion... very nice)
3. Quickened 5th lvl spell such as Wall of Force (We use this every battle, and it saves lives constantly right now)

That 0 lvl conversion may have me sold on Arcane Fire though.... hum...

 

[Brisk-sg]

The spells you currently have really don't lend themselves to shaping (ala Mastery of Shaping Archmage ability). Are you planning on picking up more spells to make this "purchase" worthwhile?

This brings up something. I subconsciouscly must have assumed based on the description of Mastery of Shaping that it would work with my Druid Spells as well. Of course this is likely not the case. Here is a further question:

Can Arcane Reach, Mastery of Counterspelling, and Mastery of Shaping be used on Divine Spells?

Arcane Fire, Mastery of Elements, and Spell-Like Ability each say that they can only be used with Arcane Magic. This makes a large difference, as I have Dispel Magic as a Druid, many shaped spells as a druid, and many touch spells (such as Bull's Strength) as a druid.

 

[EvilGM]

Heh, smart DM (not allowing magic items to be purchased).

With all those enemy spellcasters I figured you'd have found a number of spellbooks or be able to divine where they are. If not, you could have the skillmonger in the group do Gather Informations to find friendly wizard types and work out a spell trade deal with them. Or you could just take time and spend some of that mountain of gold you have researching spells (perhaps even change them slightly to better suit your character as well).

Arcane Fire rules for wizards, especially ones like yours that specialize in non-artillery type spells. Its real nice being able to zap something that you're having trouble affecting with spells (due to high SR or spell immunities) or that's grappling you or has swallowed you whole (this comes up more often than I would like).

I can't say enough about Wall of Force. Its extremely useful in almost any situation. I usually take two quickened walls and three or four regular walls.