What Rules for Duels Rule?

[Chaldfont]

I watched Kill Bill 1 again the other night and I'm going to see Star Wars EpIII Sunday. Both have sword duels where the fight will be decided by pretty much one blow. Anyone who played the old PS1 game Bushido Blade knows what I'm talking about (was I the only one reminded of Bushido Blade by the final duel in Kill Bill 1?). The movie Hero also fits the bill.

What rule set would you use for a sweet duel between two, evenly matched opponents in a chess-match fight to the death? I want the players to ponder every move. I want the characters to circle each other, looking for weakness until the final strike decides it. I want to minimize the effect of chance and maximize the effects of terrain, position, and tactics.

I think it would be fun to have a couple duels prepared for lightning-fast pickup games at Gencon.

Some ideas (in brainstorm order):

How do you set it up so that a good initiative roll doesn't necessarily win the match?
Use D20 Modern massive damage threshold.
Encourage use of fighting defensively, Combat Expertise, Bluff, Improved Disarm, Improved Sunder, etc.
Roll Initiative every round, with circumstance modifiers?

What else?

 

[Mr. Kaze]

"D&D was not built for this."

That said, try giving both characters the assassin death attack ability. Don't let them roll initiative until one of them twitches to move. Whoever wins the iniative gets a sneak attack, possibly a death attack, and there you go.

Alternately, Oriental Adventures had iajutsu -- I'm fairly certain I just misspelled that -- duels for samurai, along with a iajutsu master PrC. Not much in the circling and probing, but more along the lines of samurai duels from Kurosawa films like Seven Samurai.

::Kaze (loved the duel between the duelist and Random Schmo where the old samurai just looks at the Schmo and mutters something to the effect of "Such a waste...")

 

[S'mon]

In a Highlander/AD&D game I ran, I used a rule that you could use your Attacks to parry the enemy's attacks (opposed roll) AFTER the attacker's to-hit roll - it worked really well, as the higher Init/better roller could get momentum going and force the opponent to use all his attacks to parry until 1 truly 'missed' (below AC), it was realistic and exciting as the battle swung back and forth. Of course being Highlander ablative hp were not a problem.

 

[Rodrigo Istalindir]

No personal experience, but you might be interested in the recent thread on 'Riddle of Steel'. Seems like it's custom-tailored to that sort of thing.

 

[Umbran]

I prefer the Dueling Banjos rules from Gurps: Musicians.

Now, to be less flippant...

Consider that the D&D hit point mechanic isn't about physcial wounds. It's about wounds, and bruises, and luck, and epicness.

So, sure, that movie duel was concluded with one solid hit to the body. But that's description. The whole rest of the scene, where nobody actually connected with a weapon - all the positioning, dodging, and so on - was about losing hit points until one final hit would do the trick.

You want chess, where there's lots of manuvering and positioning? Then you don't want heavy reliance on single die rolls - like initiative. You want the character's tactics to win out over die rolls - so put them in a situation such that what they roll isn't as important as where they were and what they were dong when they rolled.

Try this - stipulate a rule where all to-hit and skill checks are "Take 10" only. Now, the person who can better manipulate the environment to their advantage is likely to win.

 

[Chaldfont]

I prefer the Dueling Banjos rules from Gurps: Musicians.

Only if one of them is Steve Martin. Ever seen him play a banjo. Smokin'.

You want chess, where there's lots of manuvering and positioning? Then you don't want heavy reliance on single die rolls - like initiative. You want the character's tactics to win out over die rolls - so put them in a situation such that what they roll isn't as important as where they were and what they were dong when they rolled.

Try this - stipulate a rule where all to-hit and skill checks are "Take 10" only. Now, the person who can better manipulate the environment to their advantage is likely to win.

This is a really cool idea. Especially when using pre-gen characters where the GM can manipulate bonuses so they are basically even.

Another gimmick I thought would be really fun in a game is the chess-house scene in Hero where the warriors imagine the battle in its entirety before they actually play it out. You could have the foes actually battle it out "in their minds", then have the loser just concede to the winner's more powerful kung-fu.

 

[Chaldfont]

In a Highlander/AD&D game I ran, I used a rule that you could use your Attacks to parry the enemy's attacks (opposed roll) AFTER the attacker's to-hit roll - it worked really well, as the higher Init/better roller could get momentum going and force the opponent to use all his attacks to parry until 1 truly 'missed' (below AC), it was realistic and exciting as the battle swung back and forth. Of course being Highlander ablative hp were not a problem.

This also sounds like fun. It lets the player decide if he wants to be on the defensive (and sacrifice attacks) or the offensive (just take the hits and get your attacks).

Another idea: Give everyone Combat Expertise for free. This is something I think would be really cool in the core combat rules. Why not trade attack bonus for ac bonus at a 1:1 rate?

 

[Chaldfont]

"D&D was not built for this."

No, it wasn't. But that doesn't mean we can't jerry-rig D20 rules to make it work!

That said, try giving both characters the assassin death attack ability. Don't let them roll initiative until one of them twitches to move. Whoever wins the iniative gets a sneak attack, possibly a death attack, and there you go.

Alternately, Oriental Adventures had iajutsu -- I'm fairly certain I just misspelled that -- duels for samurai, along with a iajutsu master PrC. Not much in the circling and probing, but more along the lines of samurai duels from Kurosawa films like Seven Samurai.

::Kaze (loved the duel between the duelist and Random Schmo where the old samurai just looks at the Schmo and mutters something to the effect of "Such a waste...")

I had forgotten about this alternative--the lightning strike that ends the fight before it begins. I love the concept of the draw-strike-sheath attack in samurai stories. I have OA, and I vaguely remember what you are talking about. I'll have to read up on it.

For this, you could also use the Black Company trick: all damage goes directly to Con when you are flat-footed.

 

[Warehouse23]

To add a cinematic feel to your sword vs. sword combats, you could simply declare that successful attacks deal subdual damage (or no damage at all), whereas crtical hit do normal damage. A mechanic would be required to "position" in combat, whereby you could make an attack which would not deal damage, but which would expand your threat range. The defender would have to have a position attack as well to reduce the opponent's threat range. The question would be, who would twitch first and attempt to score a crit.

 

[Hand of Evil]

The Challanged gets to name weapon (item of duel) OR location of duel, the chanager will state the one not claimed by the challenged OR rules for winning, Challaged then will pick what is left or time, so on.

Challanger to challanged: I challange you, sir.
Challanged to challanger: Spoons!
Challanger to challanged: Empty bowls
Challanged to challanger: The Greesy Cod Peice
Challanged to challanger: 12 noon tomorrow!