D&D 5E What should a primordial be capable of? (spoilers for SKT)

[tardigrade]

(anyone playing D&D via a Meetup group in Surrey please stop reading now, by the way).

Does Maegera seem a little underpowered in Storm King's Thunder, or is it just me? I'm not too well up on the lore around primordials (I only started 5e recently; before that I'd only played 2e) but I was under the impression that they were similar power level to gods in most cases (even if they didn't get their power from worship). And then I read SKT, in which "Maegera the Inferno" is stolen from Gauntlgrym by a few drow with a standard magic item (iron flask) to be used as a heat source by the fire giants. Yes, a heat source. Admittedly he/she/it is stated to break out after a while, but that also means DMs running SKT need to know a bit more about Maegera's abilities than "very hot". Oh, and I gathered online that Maegera can spawn fire elementals as well.

I couldn't find much on specific powers of primordials but for comparison, Asgorath/Asgoroth (another primordial, according to everyone except the dragons) caused the Tearfall, creating the Sea of Fallen Stars, destroying the batrachi civilisation and apparently creating the dragons of Toril in one go. And last time Maegera even *woke up* it caused earthquakes and a volcanic eruption that devastated Neverwinter and the surrounding area.

I'm trying to think up some ways to rewrite this situation and frankly make this less embarrassing for a creature of god-like power from the dawn of time, but does anyone else have any suggestions - or alternatively, do you think Maegera's power level is actually appropriately represented in SKT?

 

[MiraMels]

There aren't really "standard magic items" anymore. All that stuff you could just buy in a market place before the Spellplague broke (about a hundred and twenty years ago from where SKT takes place!) and who knows how all the workarounds developed during the Spellplague are interacting with the return of the Weave during the Sundering (less than a decade ago!). Maybe that makes the iron flask trapping of a primordial a little more palatable?

My players haven't gotten to to Fire Giant chapter yet, so i can't say how the primordial stacks up against a party of adventurers.


Sent from my iPhone using EN World

 

[tglassy]

Let me put it this way. According to the Legend of Drizzt books, which feature this primordial quite a bit, the thing is so massive, and so powerful, only partially waking up, it destroyed Neverwinter. We're talking Atomic Bomb power, here. it is basically the heart of the Elemental Plane of Fire, but smart. The smallest of its tendrils are living, molten fire capable of spawning fire elementals. If it wanted to, it could burn the most powerful wizard to ash. It basically is the living embodiment of fire on Toril.

Whatever stats they give it, are wrong. You can't kill it. Containing it is a feat the greatest wizards of the most ancient age had to come together to do, and involved making a deal with it. They used a continual source of Greater Water Elementals to keep it from destroying everything, and in return, it was allowed to stretch its tendrils across the land. They used these tendrils to give power to create the Hosttower of Luskan, and to give power to Gauntlegrym, to the Dwarven Forges.

They contain it. They syphon power from it. But there is no controlling it. I would imagine, whatever magical item was used to put it in a bottle, would destroy the bottle pretty quick. And if that happened...imagine the heart of a volcano sitting on the surface. It's basically the heart of the earth come to take a peak at the sky.

 

[Mirtek]

Let me put it this way. According to the Legend of Drizzt books, which feature this primordial quite a bit, the thing is so massive, and so powerful, only partially waking up, it destroyed Neverwinter. We're talking Atomic Bomb power, here. it is basically the heart of the Elemental Plane of Fire, but smart. The smallest of its tendrils are living, molten fire capable of spawning fire elementals. If it wanted to, it could burn the most powerful wizard to ash. It basically is the living embodiment of fire on Toril.

Whatever stats they give it, are wrong. You can't kill it.

Well, she's essentially a fire
deity (althought not the most powerfull, she'd betternot mess with Kossuth) so she should have stats similiar to Tiamat, that means CR 25-30.

And just transporting her in an iron flask and the giants just happen to own a cage that can hold her is stupid.

The forge in Gauntlgrym isn't even Holding her, it's merely a preassure relief for her true prison.

 

[MechaTarrasque]

One thing that pops up in other fantasy fairly often is the notion that only so much of a greater outsider can enter the material world under normal circumstances (thus whatever ritual or magguffin the heroes have to stop before the Big Bad can fully manifest). SKT is probably the closest to "normal circumstances" in any of the AP's for 5e for the FR (one could almost argue that "special circumstances" are the "normal circumstances" in the FR). I tend to think that most of Maegera is in the core of the planet or still on the elemental plane of fire, and the part of it in the iron flask is just an aspect (or maybe greater aspect, it has a higher CR than the elemental princes after all).

 

[thethain]

First. Iron flask is legendary. That puts it on the same level as staff of the Magi. No one would state the staff of the magi is some standard item. And in terms of power it is only surpassed by artifacts, which usually have entire stories built with them (such as eye of vecna).

That said even after that it is a bit hard to swallow that such an item could capture a primordial. My interpretation would be that what is in the flask is just one tendril or spec of essence of the primordial. Mechanically I would likely just take a fire elemental, and triple its hp, damage rolls, and increase its prof bonus by say 3. Maybe double its size as well.

 

[Eltab]

There is another primordial statted up in the 4e FRCS. That may give you a comparison.

I would just say that the primordial should be narrated, not rolling dice for effects.
The gods had to band together and they just barely won the fight against various primordials by all ganging up on one at a time.
No mere mortal is going to contain a primordial, but you might be able to get a flake off its skin and control THAT.

 

[dave2008]

Does Maegera seem a little underpowered in Storm King's Thunder, or is it just me? I'm not too well up on the lore around primordials (I only started 5e recently; before that I'd only played 2e) but I was under the impression that they were similar power level to gods in most cases (even if they didn't get their power from worship). And then I read SKT, in which "Maegera the Inferno" is stolen from Gauntlgrym by a few drow with a standard magic item (iron flask) to be used as a heat source by the fire giants. Yes, a heat source. Admittedly he/she/it is stated to break out after a while, but that also means DMs running SKT need to know a bit more about Maegera's abilities than "very hot". Oh, and I gathered online that Maegera can spawn fire elementals as well.

I couldn't find much on specific powers of primordials but for comparison, Asgorath/Asgoroth (another primordial, according to everyone except the dragons) caused the Tearfall, creating the Sea of Fallen Stars, destroying the batrachi civilisation and apparently creating the dragons of Toril in one go. And last time Maegera even *woke up* it caused earthquakes and a volcanic eruption that devastated Neverwinter and the surrounding area.

I'm trying to think up some ways to rewrite this situation and frankly make this less embarrassing for a creature of god-like power from the dawn of time, but does anyone else have any suggestions - or alternatively, do you think Maegera's power level is actually appropriately represented in SKT?

Yes, they rival gods in power. In 4e, it sometimes took up to three gods to destroy or sometimes just cage a single primordial.

I am planning to update Maegera to my 5e Epic Updates - Primordials , but since I am in the process of changing the format, I haven't done so yet.

If you look at Lakkar in that post (don't forget to reference the "Primoridal Traits") you should have a good basis for Maegra, but obviously cold focused instead.

 

[dave2008]

There is another primordial statted up in the 4e FRCS. That may give you a comparison.

I would just say that the primordial should be narrated, not rolling dice for effects.
The gods had to band together and they just barely won the fight against various primordials by all ganging up on one at a time.
No mere mortal is going to contain a primordial, but you might be able to get a flake off its skin and control THAT.

There were several primordials stated in 4e. However, it is not true that they had to gang up to defeat them one at a time. In 4e, both Bane and Io are noted to have slain a primordial one on one. However, it seems that the common approach was to gang up. For example, Maul-Tar was imprisoned by the combined might or Moradin, Bahamut, and Pelor I believe.

 

[tardigrade]

First. Iron flask is legendary. That puts it on the same level as staff of the Magi. No one would state the staff of the magi is some standard item. And in terms of power it is only surpassed by artifacts, which usually have entire stories built with them (such as eye of vecna).

That said even after that it is a bit hard to swallow that such an item could capture a primordial. My interpretation would be that what is in the flask is just one tendril or spec of essence of the primordial. Mechanically I would likely just take a fire elemental, and triple its hp, damage rolls, and increase its prof bonus by say 3. Maybe double its size as well.

Apologies if this had some different meaning in one of the editions I skipped; by 'standard', I simply meant that it appears in the DMG and is presumably non-unique. I'd say anything other than an artifact shouldn't have any chance of containing something of equivalent power to a god. If the PCs get involved in the 'theft' of Maegera in my campaign, I was planning to swap it for an artifact; in 2e the Acorn of Wo Mai or Thakorsil's seat would almost be up to the job. I hadn't considered making it about stealing a fragment instead.

I actually like that better. [edit: edited out ideas for my campaign, just in case... - I'll edit back in once we've used them!].

Oh, and having to look up Thakorsil's Seat reminded me that VGtatM included stats for the Ring of Winter, so now I have to add that...