What Should the Bard Be?

[Lanefan]

To me, the bard is the character who puts stuff together about the setting. They dig out the meanings of old legends, fit those together with the cleric's understanding of people en-masse and the wizard's understanding of esoteric knowledge, and figure out what's really going on. Any character with brains can attempt this, but bards do it better. They also get more out of libraries than other classes, and realise how the world's history is affecting current events quickly. The music and entertaining are ways to earn a living, moving from place to place, and to turn yourself from a suspicious stranger into a trusted friend. And when someone needs to be eloquent now to avoid everything going wrong, the bard is the best bet.

All of this is great. I like it.

The problem is that such a character would likely best function as a lone wolf doing her own thing rather than as a member of a larger group, which kinda plays hell with typical party-based play.

As for what I think a bard should be and be able to do (ideally):

--- a lore-master and legend-teller
--- a charmer and beguiler
--- sneaky enough to get into trouble - and then out of it
--- able to manipulate magic through music to effects no other class can achieve (i.e. a completely bespoke-to-class "spell" or effects list)
--- able to fight just enough to get by during the early days (mechanically, combat progression very good for the first few levels then slows down dramatically and eventually stops dead)
--- beholden to no law, monarch, or authority except maybe that of other bards (i.e. cannot be lawfully-aligned or equivalent)

Prime stats (using D&D as a base): Int, Dex, Cha. Dump stat: Wis.

 

[payn]

Wheel of Time

Game of Thrones

Robinhood

Krull

Vikings

13th Warrior

Labyrinth

 

[MarkB]

I always think of the Harpers - not the ones from the Forgotten Realms, but the ones from Anne McCaffrey's Pern novels. In a post-technological setting where paper was very scarce since suitable trees didn't grow naturally on the planet, the settlers fell back upon older methods of preserving knowledge, through oral traditions, and the Harpers are the continent-wide organisation dedicated to this effort. They codify knowledge into verse, share it amongst themselves and then disseminate it across the world, in songs and rhymes learned by rote by children and thus ingrained by the time they reach adulthood.

They also serve as the news and communication infrastructure of the continent, with networks of drum towers serving in place of telegraph cables.

 

[CreamCloud0]

All of this is great. I like it.

The problem is that such a character would likely best function as a lone wolf doing her own thing rather than as a member of a larger group, which kinda plays hell with typical party-based play.

As for what I think a bard should be and be able to do (ideally):

--- a lore-master and legend-teller
--- a charmer and beguiler
--- sneaky enough to get into trouble - and then out of it
--- able to manipulate magic through music to effects no other class can achieve (i.e. a completely bespoke-to-class "spell" or effects list)
--- able to fight just enough to get by during the early days (mechanically, combat progression very good for the first few levels then slows down dramatically and eventually stops dead)
--- beholden to no law, monarch, or authority except maybe that of other bards (i.e. cannot be lawfully-aligned or equivalent)

Prime stats (using D&D as a base): Int, Dex, Cha. Dump stat: Wis.

It’s posts like this that makes me wish party composition was something that was still more of a meaningful facet of the game, I mean it’s great that you can function without a designated healer or not having a rogue won’t leave your group staring blankly at a locked door but I appreciate the concept that the party members make a team because individually they’d all run into an issue they couldn’t solve by themselves with their own skillset.

the fighter can’t read those ancient runes, the cleric can’t disable that trap, the rogue can’t fight all those monsters by themselves, the wizard doesn’t have enough slots to magic through every single obstacle.

So the bard becomes this high value problem solving piece for lots of out of combat stuff and can support their team very well in it but they have little capability to function solely by themselves if they can’t pass on most of their knowledge and buffs to someone else who can actually do something with it

edit: this also appies in how they're built, how a cleric gets to be bulky and armoured and have casting because they fit a specific niche role which is designed to support others, the wizard is this massive powerhouse of damage and control but they have the defenses of a wet napkin to even it out, the fighter is a beast in combat but suffer ouside of it and are meant to carry the members of the party who aren't designed for combat (at least all in theory)

 

[MGibster]

I always think of the Harpers - not the ones from the Forgotten Realms, but the ones from Anne McCaffrey's Pern novels. In a post-technological setting where paper was very scarce since suitable trees didn't grow naturally on the planet, the settlers fell back upon older methods of preserving knowledge, through oral traditions, and the Harpers are the continent-wide organisation dedicated to this effort.

Oh, boy! Time for my useless graduate schoo knowledge to shine! So paper, true paper some call it, was produced using rags made from hemp, linen, and cotton. The creation of paper from the pulp of wood didn't come about until the mid-19th century. And of course you always have parchment and vellum made from the skins of animals. If we're talking about a book from the middle ages, we're talking vellum since paper didn't come into wide use in Europe until the early modern period (1450). Granted that it's labor intensive (expensive) to produce books from vellum, but you don't need paper.

 

[MGibster]

I've never liked a bard, so I don't know what it should be. The only time I ever tried playing a bard was in an Eberron campaign and he died during the first adventure. Killed by a Giff. We still laugh about it today. It seems to me that the Bard appeals to the person who wants to be able to do everything. I've made my peace with it's existance in a way I never have, and likely never will, with the monk.

 

[MarkB]

Oh, boy! Time for my useless graduate schoo knowledge to shine! So paper, true paper some call it, was produced using rags made from hemp, linen, and cotton. The creation of paper from the pulp of wood didn't come about until the mid-19th century. And of course you always have parchment and vellum made from the skins of animals. If we're talking about a book from the middle ages, we're talking vellum since paper didn't come into wide use in Europe until the early modern period (1450). Granted that it's labor intensive (expensive) to produce books from vellum, but you don't need paper.

As I recall, they do use hides, they just can't cost-effectively mass produce them for general use.

 

[John Dallman]

The problem is that such a character would likely best function as a lone wolf doing her own thing rather than as a member of a larger group, which kinda plays hell with typical party-based play.

Essentially all of my 44 years of playing of D&D-family games has been in settings that weren't based on the idea of a single party. The bards I've played have been members of established parties at various points in their careers, but have also been played solo, or with other parties or groups. Their current activities are:

• One runs a university, which trains bards and wizards, and also provides new kinds of education. His previous projects were composing and staging operas.
• One is trying to collect people to form a new ruling class after the current one in a large country is overthrown. He was offered the job of co-commander of the revolution, but reckoned someone needed to think further ahead.
• One is the bursar of the above university, who goes on adventures once a year or so.
• One is stuck in a campaign that's been on hold for about a decade.
• Two more are travelling bards, who might show up anywhere something interesting is going on.

 

[Willie the Duck]

--- able to manipulate magic through music to effects no other class can achieve (i.e. a completely bespoke-to-class "spell" or effects list)

Hmm. I kinda prefer it if the bard's magic isn't some form of music-magic. The 2e AD&D bard had some issues*, but I really liked what they did with their spells -- they were more a case of a wandering lorekeeper and storyteller picking up odd bits of useful knowledge (same as the rest of their jack-of-all-trades schtick) and that just happens to include spellcasting in a D&D-like world. I feel that focusing too much on the music as the magic base kinda enforces the notion that bards are minstrels more than lorekeepers and such.
*Could only readily fight or cast spells in a given situation (unless you found elven chain), low hd and ThAC0 inhibited fighting overall, had a few thief skills, but not the rather important find/remove traps (plus armor issues same as casting).

--- able to fight just enough to get by during the early days (mechanically, combat progression very good for the first few levels then slows down dramatically and eventually stops dead)

To what specific end? Just make them survive better or contribute more at lower levels when they have fewer spells and other tricks? To let them wield longswords and rapiers, but not really compete in the gish/fighting-caster category?

 

[GMMichael]

nonexistent, never liked them

Aw! Follow the thread. Maybe you'll see something you like.

I like the 5e bard because the subclasses can be so many different bards. Enchanting, dangerous with a blade, skilled, knowledgeable, sneaky, etc. A party of all bards is plausible with Magic Secrets.

That's a sign of flexibility. A new player shows up to the party and says, "so, what's everyone playing?" " Bards. "

I would note that Chris Pines played a rogue, whose background was "spy" and cover was being a minstrel. He was a bard in name only.

Possible. But who makes better plans, bards or rogues? And then who leads the party better to its completion?

The problem is that such a character would likely best function as a lone wolf doing her own thing rather than as a member of a larger group, which kinda plays hell with typical party-based play.

Are you asserting that bards shouldn't be lone wolves?

--- able to fight just enough to get by during the early days (mechanically, combat progression very good for the first few levels then slows down dramatically and eventually stops dead)

This sounds like a class change/multiclass. Otherwise, it's too meta for me. "Jogwidt, are you actually getting worse at fighting?" " Sorry. I've been gaining levels. Can't help it. "