D&D (2024) What spells should be dropped?

[Micah Sweet]

I don’t really want to get into a whole thing about what wotc will or won’t do, considering how those tend to go these days.

Edit: also, I don’t really care? Like I’m not over here worrying about whether wotc will do a thing, I’m having discussions about D&D .

Sorry. Figured it was ok to talk about what WotC was going to do with the new books because...this is a thread about what WotC should do with the new books (albeit it through a specific lens).

I get being done with that noise though.

 

[Stalker0]

I don't want that format from WotC. D&D is a big freakin' game man. Do I think the 3 core book format is dope? Not really, I think they'd be better served changing it up a bit. But one book? That'd be such a disgustingly big book.

That's my thing.

My PH I use all the time, and my players will borrow it. My MM I use every game, and I rarely want my players to have it. And my DMG I use mainly for planning, rarely during games.

The books serve different purposes and are used at different rates of time. Its efficient to split them.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Sorry. Figured it was ok to talk about what WotC was going to do with the new books because...this is a thread about what WotC should do with the new books (albeit it through a specific lens).

I get being done with that noise though.

Yeah it’s just a fatigue, no big deal.

Anyway I see the thread as a discussion about hat we would like to see, more than anything else. I mean, I think we all know no spells are gonna be dropped.

But had I my way, you have spells and items and some lore and all the PHB stuff in the Core Rulebook, and rules and tables and deep worldbuilding advice and all that alongside most of the monster manual content in the DM’s Guide.

 

[Yaarel]

That's my thing.

My PH I use all the time, and my players will borrow it. My MM I use every game, and I rarely want my players to have it. And my DMG I use mainly for planning, rarely during games.

The books serve different purposes and are used at different rates of time. Its efficient to split them.

I want a "core four" book system.

Players Handbook (game rules, basic options)
Setting Guide (official Forgotten Realms setting, world or region, setting options)
Monster Manual
DMs Guide (variant rules, treasure, homebrew assistance)

 

[Clint_L]

I think from WotC's perspective the physical books are fast becoming a secondary consideration. They'll keep publishing them, but will also keep encouraging folks to use DnDBeyond, which is in effect one giant, hyperlinked book.

So when I go to make an encounter using DnDBeyond, I have easy access to every WotC published creature - it's an incredible time saver.

This makes spells much easier to manage as well, though it also shows just how many of them players have to choose between.

 

[rmcoen]

Book printing is a bit off-topic...

I want there to be "magic for all occasions"... but a lot of it should be low level. Hallucinatory Terrain, for example, is perfect in a few situations... but does it need to be 3rd level just because it lasts?

I'm an unrepentant pack rat, because there's always that one time you need the thing you just got rid off (or the time you had the bizarre thing because you kept everything). Story from a previous edition: Reading the rulebooks, Snilloc's Snowball is a hard pass; Decastave, useless. Then I rolled up a low level wizard with Snowball, Magic Missile, decastave, obscurement (I think), and jump. And darned if I didn't use everything single one of those spells in that first session! I felt like a freaking genius, using these "inferior" spells (okay, MM isn't inferior, but it was only doing 2d4+2 damage at the time) to freeze a lock, hide from guards, be armed in a weapons-free town when a barfight broke out, etc.

If I had Hallucinatory Terrain, I'd be looking for nails to hit with that hammer. (And also hunting up a wizard to teach/sell me Fireball!)

In my campaign, the fighter who uses pikes has found 2 magic daggers, a magic warhammer, a magic javelin, and half dozen "special material" shortswords and daggers. He took his share of the loot, went to the town of Mariha (known across the Three Kingdoms for making the best pole-arms), and bought himself an exceptional (nonmagical +1) pike. Then he went to the provincial capital, and paid a wizard to enchant it for him. The fighter/rogue, meanwhile, had all those special material daggers melted down by some dwarves that owed him a favor, and got a nice special material longsword. and if they continue on the current path into the desert kingdom, they're going to come across lots of spears and scimitars... no pikes.

Likewise... the wizard finds spells that mattered to the (long-dead) mage who had them. Not (usually) the spells the player wants to find. Gravelkonk was an alchemist that desperately wanted to become a sorcerer, so his invented spells feature that; his partner, Slate, was a sorcerer who hated his sorcerer relatives, so his invented spells - thoughtfully recorded by Gravelkonk! - were very anti-caster. And they both had utility spells for living underground. Neither had Fly, or Cone of Cold, or Phantasmal Killer.... or even Tiny Hut!


I think spells need a revamp. I think damage spells need to be balanced - and I think situational use cases are a balancing feature, while recognizing that it is hard to quantify. There shouldn't be a 7th level spell doing the same or less damage than a 6th level upcast spell. (cough hand... sword cough). I also think elements and conceptual themes should remain distinct - acid behaves this way, lightning behaves that way, which should make those kinds of spells feel more unique from each other. (Just like I think weapons should feel distinct... another current 5e failing.)

So, sure, go ahead and drop completely redundant spells. I'm cool with upcasting giving new features. Illusion 1 is silent image, Illusion 2 is long-lasting or bigger image, and Illusion 3 is long-lasting, big image with sound. Phantasmal Killer is not Illusion 4, though! But don't drop niche spells... these reward the wizard for hainv searched them out (or found them), and carefully copied the into the spellbook, for exactly that time they have found that Soul Guardian who demands they stand inside running snowmelt (water breathing, resist cold) while picturing a field of springtime dasies so real it becomes real (hallucinatory terrain), and then defeating the avatar of winter (immune to all damage but radiant; spirit shroud). Rewarding research and recon, the wizard is perfectly prepared for this encounter... using spells he'd probably never otherwise prepare.

 

[Mistwell]

I can't think of any spell which needs to be entirely scraped. But I can think of a lot that should be re-worked.

 

[James Gasik]

I can't think of any spell which needs to be entirely scraped. But I can think of a lot that should be re-worked.

Could I ask how you would re-work Simulacrum? Every time I look at the spell, once you remove the problematic bits, like spellcasting, what's left doesn't even feel like a particularly useful spell for adventuring casters (but casting simulacrum on kings, people with specialized knowledge like sages, or skills like master craftsman still has potential for shenanigans).

 

[Micah Sweet]

Could I ask how you would re-work Simulacrum? Every time I look at the spell, once you remove the problematic bits, like spellcasting, what's left doesn't even feel like a particularly useful spell for adventuring casters (but casting simulacrum on kings, people with specialized knowledge like sages, or skills like master craftsman still has potential for shenanigans).

Simulacrum is a great worldbuilding spell. I see no problem with it.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Could I ask how you would re-work Simulacrum? Every time I look at the spell, once you remove the problematic bits, like spellcasting, what's left doesn't even feel like a particularly useful spell for adventuring casters (but casting simulacrum on kings, people with specialized knowledge like sages, or skills like master craftsman still has potential for shenanigans).

The only problem with it is that there isn't a hard limit of 1 on simulacrums of a given creature.

And really...even then...like stuff like this just doesn't matter, IMO.

Like if this spell can ruin your game...I don't even know how on earth you're structuring your high level game.

The wizard can change reality...okay? I've literally never seen the wizard be the MVP going up against the epic level game BBEG that is either a god or something that could kill a god. Fighter, rogue, ranger, sorcerer, definitely bard and cleric which are the two strongest classes in the game, but the wizard!? Come on. Be real.

The whole class is just spells. That's it. That's all the class is. The wizard is second only to the fighter in the race to Most Boring Class.