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What system elements promote and hinder roleplaying (inspired by "does 4e hinder ")

I've heard lots of edition wars in which people both support and attack 4e for roleplaying potential.

I'm not asking about 4e or 3e. I'm asking about what elements in any edition or system promote and which hinder roleplaying.


I suspect that people will have different answers to this. One person might say "an open storytelling, rules light system" promotes roleplaying because I'm not limited by rules. While another might say "a system that has the rules crunch to support my making any character I can imagine and then do things with that" promotes roleplaying".


So I ask of you all, what helps, what hurts, and why?
 

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Crothian

First Post
I think rules can hinder or help role playing for people that are newish to the game or just not comfortable role playing. People that like to role play or people that are veterans of the games seem to not care about if a rule helps or hinders in their role playing. They have moved beyond allowing the rules to influence them.

Game like Exalted and Scion that give extra bonuses for better description of actions I think promotes more role playing.

I do think minis and the use of too many props can take some people away from role playing. This is especially true for people that a bit more tactical in their thinking.

The greatest influnece though on if people role play seems to be the other people at the table.
 

Fallen Seraph

First Post
I would say for myself a loose, easily adjustable base set of rules that covers a extremely wide-gambit of different situations is something I quite like. Also, if it is something that is there and easy to interact with but not hooked so deeply into the system that there is no freedom within it.

There is others but this is very core to my personal enjoyment.
 

scrubkai

Explorer
One of the things that I've always found to help or hinder role playing is the rewards system.

D&D (any edition) really has never done a great job of rewarding role playing. Sure you can gain XP for role playing but all that really does is let you kill things better, as that's really what the character levels have always been focused on.
At least to me, learning how to swing a sword better is not something that you should get because you convinced an innkeeper that he needs to stand up to the local thieves guild by not paying their protection money.

If you really want to reward role playing, then there needs to be a reward system for items outside of combat. Fate points (from Spirit of the Century I think) is an example of something that you earn from roleplaying faults in your character and that can be used both in and out of combat. As I remember it, with fate points you turn one in and then make slight adjustment to the story.
Example: if you are playing Cicero the Orator and are shopping on one side of town while Ox the 3 INT Fighter happens to be in the process of insulting your patron's Wife on the other side of town, you can lay down a fate point to suddenly find out that the merchant you were looking for happens to be drinking in the same inn as Ox. So low and behold you have to wander over to that inn and can get involved in the scene where the party is trying to recover from the insult.

Individual DMs can also help by giving story based rewards (Working up the political structure, learning new plot points, getting that extra feast from the happy townsfolk) but all of that is what I consider "outside" the system. Many games (like D&D) have no rules in place to help the DM out with this work.

Just my 2cp
 

Hella_Tellah

Explorer
More than anything, a game needs a setting that players will want to interact with. Without that, no roleplaying can happen. I think there's also an upper limit to the number of rules you can have to adjudicate situations, since looking through books is not roleplaying. That limit will differ from person to person, though--many of us have boundless mental archives full of D&D rules minutia, so the rules for even really crunchy editions of D&D don't really get in the way, since we don't have to take time away from interacting at the table in order to use the rules.
 

Night

First Post
Good mechanics will prop up roleplaying -- while rules-light systems are tempting since there's no potential stumbling blocks, it can also be harder to wrap your mind around more esoteric concepts without some crutch of support. Good mechanics put everyone on the same wavelength and help with immersion through that.

What hurts is when mechanics try to shove players into a predetermined block for playstyle: the ideal system should be open to interpretation and support creativity, not stifle it.

I think D&D, generally, does a good job at this, with a lot of different ways to make a single character. Sometimes they can fall into holes of logic where they decide the rules should support only their way of looking at things (small creatures having a tangible "glass ceiling" on their melee damage), but they've been doing less and less of this as time goes on.
 

Mournblade94

Adventurer
Good Roleplaying is system independent.

In my experience no matter what the reward system may be, a person tends to ahve the same basic level of roleplaying with a rewards system or no.

Inspiration of the story element encourages good roleplaying. THis can be done in a complex system or a simple system. It all depends on the story.
 
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dmccoy1693

Adventurer
[storytime]
Long ago, I ran an 1E Exalted campaign. I captured a PC and interrogated his character, trying to force information that he had out of him. The player's reaction: shut up and wait for an opportunity to either be rescued or escape. I hurt his character, he said nothing. I ignored his character for days (ingame), he said nothing. I tried to charm the information out of him. He just spent a willpower to end the effect.

Right then I knew that a more complex social combat system was required and would help, no hinder role playing. I was much pleased with Exalted 2E's social combat system. It still needs work, but it is better than 1E.
[/storytime]

In my experience, a system that promotes role playing puts just as much emphasis on social interaction as it does combat. This mean that the method of convince someone that you're on their side is the same system (or nearly the same system) as swinging a dumb metal stick. It also means that there are roughly the same number of powers as there are for social interaction as there are swinging that dumb metal stick.

D&D/D20 (regardless of edition) is a great example of a system that does not promote role playing. Feats are the best place to start to exemplify this. Using the 3.5 SRD, I count 68 feats that directly affect combat and 7 feats that directly affect social interaction. (Note: I was increadibly liberal with my social count, so whether or not some should have been counted is debateable. Also I'm going to give both counts a +/-10%, allowing for different interpretations, mistakes, etc). I don't own 4E, but the sections I read in B&N lead me to believe that the dispairity is just as bad. The social feats I counted, almost all of them were +2 to two skills. There was no equivilent of power attack where the whole of the person's personality descends upon someone to convince them that you are right and they are wrong. There is no Proficiency with Reverse Psychology, no Stunning Argument, no Quick Whit, no ... You get the idea.

Then there is Good and Evil hardwired into the game. Well, on the good, neutral, evil scale, how do you define V who is doing a good thing (saving her family) for all the wrong reasons and went about it in an evil manner (making a deal with fiends). Or how about Belkar? When He saved Hinjo, he committed a good act. When he rescued Hailey and did not abandon her, he committed a good act. Infact, since getting the Mark of Justice, I cannot think of any truly evil act (save killing the kobold prophet) that he committed. But even then, killing isn't innately evil in D&D since that is what the game is about (killing things and taking their stuff). So even that 1 act isn't necessarily evil. So why is he still considered evil? I believe the BoVD said that actions do not matter, all that matters is what happens when someone is hit with a smite evil.

D&D, regardless of edition, has pretty much been freeform role playing (which is a nice way of saying that it does a slightly better job than monopoly at encouraging role playing). Freeform role playing means that anyone, regardless of Int/Wis/Cha score, can making an equally convincing argument and change someone's mind. There is no system for saying that someone with a 24 CHA is more likeable than someone with a 4 CHA (or that the prettier person has an easier time convincing someone of doing something for them). While the DM should make a judgement call and the player should act the way their ability scores say they should, the rules themselves do not support it. The real limit to a character's social abilities is the player, not the character.
 
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Remathilis

Legend
In Theory, Star Wars (both WEGs d6 and d20 pre-SAGA) rewarded good role-playing by giving the PC force points (which could be spent on influencing a die-roll). In reality, I usually saw them forgotten, horded, given out like candy on Halloween or given out like gruel in the movie Oliver Twist.

The problem with "promoting good role-playing" is that (like pornography) no one can define it, but knows it when they see it. Is good role-playing a detailed backstory, talking in character, interacting with NPCs, or clever use of improv tactics in a fight to swing a combat? Is it keeping true to character, and if so how do you "know" what that character is, since the guy playing him is the guy running him (Is a PC who runs off causing mischief and nearly getting his party killed a "good role-player" because he's acting as his character would; like the Joker from TDK?)

Personally, I prefer systems that are RP-neutral; I don't have to worry about about artificial rules designed by some designer (or interpreted by some other player) to tell me I'm doing "good". Similarly, I don't need rules that punish introverts while rewarding loud or "spotlight stealing" PCs for talking in character to every NPC and not allowing others to get a word in edge-wise.

Give me a good solid task-resolution system, I'll add the rest.
 

Mournblade94

Adventurer
[storytime]
Long ago, I ran an 1E Exalted campaign. I captured a PC and interrogated his character, trying to force information that he had out of him. The player's reaction: shut up and wait for an opportunity to either be rescued or escape. I hurt his character, he said nothing. I ignored his character for days (ingame), he said nothing. I tried to charm the information out of him. He just spent a willpower to end the effect.

Right then I knew that a more complex social combat system was required and would help, no hinder role playing. I was much pleased with Exalted 2E's social combat system. It still needs work, but it is better than 1E.
[/storytime]

In my experience, a system that promotes role playing puts just as much emphasis on social interaction as it does combat. This mean that the method of convince someone that you're on their side is the same system (or nearly the same system) as swinging a dumb metal stick. It also means that there are roughly the same number of powers as there are for social interaction as there are swinging that dumb metal stick.

I don't see how a social system can encourage roleplaying. IN fact I think it does the opposite.

I played HERO, and was going about an interogation. I rolled interogate and the other character rolled a good resist. I roleplayed but it was told to me that the other one was such a good little cultist, my roleplaying did not matter as much. Maybe his roll was so good it meant that I had to come up with a question that is really creative. I failed in that regard.

But how did this help roleplaying? It didn't. It gave a mechanical evaluation to my argument, but it certainly did not aid roleplaying per se.

This situation could be ruined by D&D as well with skill checks.

The best way is to let the roleplay statement, eg. I am going to chop off your finger if you do not tell me where the Doritos are...

lead to a difficulty number.

Even so, the best roleplaying is system independent.
 

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