Pathfinder 1E What the heck do Roc eat???

[MarkB]

One thing that surprised me when reading up on eagles in Wikipedia for Roc comparisons is that, while they do tend to go for prey they can carry away, some eagles actually take on prey several times larger than themselves (such as small deer), killing them in situ and then removing pieces to carry away.

With that in mind, Rocs might well occasionally go after prey even larger than themselves, especially if hunting in pairs.

 

[Empirate]

Basically nothing in the monster manuals that is larger than a Roc can actually be outfought by one. We're talking colossal creatures here, and most of these are just plain deadly, even to a Roc. Colossal Monstrous Centipedes maybe, but those are yucky!

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

The only time I used a roc, it was carrying a small whale in its talons. The players crapped themselves and ran away.

For your sake, I hope you meant player characters...

 

[n00bdragon]

What does it matter what the Roc eats? Will the answer "adventurers" not suffice? Clearly, you have a giant bird that lives in the mountains that is supposed to be dangerous to the players (otherwise why stat it?). If the players simply must enter the Roc's lair and find bones or carcasses make them huge and non-descript, "the carcass of a giant animal".

When you strive for verisimilitude and internal consistency you destroy the wonder and mystery.

 

[MarkB]

When you strive for verisimilitude and internal consistency you destroy the wonder and mystery.

In my experience, it's the realisation that there is no verisimilitude or internal consistency which destroys the wonder and mystery.

 

[Cleon]

One thing that surprised me when reading up on eagles in Wikipedia for Roc comparisons is that, while they do tend to go for prey they can carry away, some eagles actually take on prey several times larger than themselves (such as small deer), killing them in situ and then removing pieces to carry away.

With that in mind, Rocs might well occasionally go after prey even larger than themselves, especially if hunting in pairs.

Well the Monstrous Manual says Rocs eat Purple Worms, who are larger and significantly heavier than a Roc. For that matter, an Elephant may be a size category smaller but it'll often be heavier than the 8000 pound average bodyweight a Roc has in the 3E SRD.

It'd make sense if they dealt with such dangerous prey by attacking them in pairs.

Like real-world wild predators, Rocs have to balance the effort and risk of attacking an animal with the nutritional value of the prey. Rocs don't have wands of cure light wounds like adventurers, or even allies with the Heal skill. If they get wounded, they have to rely on natural healing - which'll be 18 hit points per day for a D&D 3E Roc, or 16 for a Pathfinder Roc. If a Roc is taking more damage than that on average to kill its prey, it's likely to be slowly nickle-and-dimed to death.

Elephants in D&D are nasty. Let's compare their stats:

SRD 3.5
Roc: AC 17 (-4 size, +2 Dex, +9 natural), touch 8, flat-footed 15; hp 207 (18d8+126), Melee 2 talons +21 melee (2d6+12) and bite +19 melee (2d8+6); Power Attack; Hide -3, Listen +10, Spot +14; Carrying Capacity (flying) 7456 lbs.
Elephant: AC 15 (-2 size, +7 natural), touch 8, flat-footed 15; hp 104 (11d8+55), Melee Slam +16 melee (2d6+10) and 2 stamps +11 melee (2d6+5); or gore +16 melee (2d8+15); Listen +12, Spot +10

Pathfinder
Roc: AC 22, touch 8, flat-footed 20 (+2 Dex, +14 natural, –4 size); hp 120 (16d8+48), Melee 2 talons +18 (2d6+9/19–20 plus grab), bite +17 (2d8+9); Power Attack [-4 melee, +8 damage]; Fly +7, Perception +15; Carrying Capacity (flying) 3200 lbs.
Elephant: AC 17, touch 8, flat-footed 17 (+9 natural, –2 size); hp 93 (11d8+44), Melee gore +16 (2d8+10), slam +16 (2d6+10); Power Attack [-3 melee, +6 damage]; Perception +21

Going by those numbers, an Elephant will generally notice the Roc coming (Spot +10 or Perception +21 versus Hide -3 isn't much of a contest), and a single Roc will need a couple of rounds to kill an Elephant even if it uses Power Attack unless it makes exceptionally good rolls.

In two rounds, an Elephant can do a lot of damage - the D&D version does 34 points on average if it hits with its slam and both stomps, and the Pathfinder version averages 36 with a slam and gore. Worse, the Pathfinder elephant has Power Attack, which could increase its damage output significantly. And Pathfinder Rocs only have 120 hit points, so it doesn't need to be that unlucky to lose a fight or three and get killed if it lives by hunting elephants. Furthermore, Elephants live in herds and are none to actively defend their kin - an unlucky or inexperienced Roc that allows itself to get attacked (or, possibly worse, grabbed) by three or four Elephants is likely to get itself killed.

A pair of Rocs would fare much better. Two 3E Rocs using Power Attacks in a dive average enough damage with their talon attacks to kill an elephant, and they're not likely to miss. If they win initiative they can kill their prey before they risk injury themselves.

Furthermore, a pair of Rocs can carry most of the meat home - a Pathfinder Roc can fly with a 3200 pound load, so they can only carry enough prey to feed a nestful of young for two days.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Going back to real world raptors, they're going to go after easier prey by preference. Special prey may result in their developing special tactics- they are smart.

So, returning to Rocs, an adult elephant would probably not be preferential prey, though a youngster would definitely be on the menu. If they had to go after adults, they'd probably drop rocks on 'em to minimize their risks. The successful ones wild, at least.

Making humans in a fantasy world kind of a wildcard for Rocs. Most would just be tasty snacks, small enough to grab and eat like the bag of peanuts the steward gives you on a flight. No special tactics required. But every once in a while, a Roc would encounter something different- adventurers. That's HUGE packets of damage dealing in tiny packages. The birds wouldn't know what the hell was going on, only that their peanuts had suddenly pulled a bazooka on them.

 

[MarkB]

Going by those numbers, an Elephant will generally notice the Roc coming (Spot +10 or Perception +21 versus Hide -3 isn't much of a contest), and a single Roc will need a couple of rounds to kill an Elephant even if it uses Power Attack unless it makes exceptionally good rolls.

In two rounds, an Elephant can do a lot of damage - the D&D version does 34 points on average if it hits with its slam and both stomps, and the Pathfinder version averages 36 with a slam and gore. Worse, the Pathfinder elephant has Power Attack, which could increase its damage output significantly. And Pathfinder Rocs only have 120 hit points, so it doesn't need to be that unlucky to lose a fight or three and get killed if it lives by hunting elephants. Furthermore, Elephants live in herds and are none to actively defend their kin - an unlucky or inexperienced Roc that allows itself to get attacked (or, possibly worse, grabbed) by three or four Elephants is likely to get itself killed.

I figure they'd tend to maximise their advantage and use hit-and-run tactics - they do have Flyby Attack and excellent flying speed. It'll take around 3-5 hits to take down an elephant this way, but even if the elephant has the courage and presence of mind to ready attacks instead of trying to flee, it's going to be hard-pressed to inflict much damage in return.

I'd imagine that mostly Rocs would concentrate on less well-defended herbivorous prey when hunting larger animals, though - I can imagine them taking on the larger sauropods such as brachiosaurs or apatosaurs. I don't think I've seen those statted for D&D - the SRD only covers the more popular and aggressive breeds.

Rocs might well use similar tactics to lions when choosing prey from such herds, initially panicking the herd by making diving passes, then cutting out weaker members as the herd stampedes. Their superior speed, excellent maneuverability and bird's-eye view would allow one or two birds to pull off tactics which would require the concerted efforts of whole packs of land predators.

 

[Cleon]

I figure they'd tend to maximise their advantage and use hit-and-run tactics - they do have Flyby Attack and excellent flying speed. It'll take around 3-5 hits to take down an elephant this way, but even if the elephant has the courage and presence of mind to ready attacks instead of trying to flee, it's going to be hard-pressed to inflict much damage in return.

Actually, an Elephant's gore attack does more damage than a Roc's talons - 2d8+15 vs 2d6+12 (3.5) or 2d8+10 vs 2d6+9 (Pathfinder). That's assuming it's not diving (since I'm not sure a Roc could use a Flyby Attack with a dive unless the terrain is very favorable). The Roc can use Power Attack to even out the damage, though.

The tactics entry in both AD&D and 3E indicates a Rocs instinctive hunting technique is to Snatch prey and then carry them off. Unfortunately, an average Roc isn't strong enough to fly off with an average Elephant. I'm imagining that a Roc is likely to try that with an Elephant and find it doesn't work too well, but an experienced older bird learns better tactics for dealing with Huge-sized prey, such as Flyby hit-and-run. It does have the Flyby Attack feat, after all, so they must use it now and again.

I'd imagine that mostly Rocs would concentrate on less well-defended herbivorous prey when hunting larger animals, though.

I reckon a Roc's ideal prey is something like a Bison or a Heavy Horse. Big enough to feed the whole family, light enough to carry back to the nest in one piece, and not dangerous enough to be a risk.

I can imagine them taking on the larger sauropods such as brachiosaurs or apatosaurs. I don't think I've seen those statted for D&D - the SRD only covers the more popular and aggressive breeds.

There are 3E stats for a bunch of dinosaurs in Dragon #318 and Dungeon #143, both of which include Diplodocus, Parasaurolyphus and Stegosaurus. The stats are basically the same in both. Of the three, the Parasaurolyphus is by far the best candidate as Roc prey - the other two are a lot tougher customer.

Rocs might well use similar tactics to lions when choosing prey from such herds, initially panicking the herd by making diving passes, then cutting out weaker members as the herd stampedes. Their superior speed, excellent maneuverability and bird's-eye view would allow one or two birds to pull off tactics which would require the concerted efforts of whole packs of land predators.

Well that's certainly conceivable, although there's nothing in the original writeup to indicate that standard 3E/AD&D Rocs possess such well developed instincts for cooperative hunting. Families of giant hornbills manage something similar in our corner of the Prime Material.

I prefer having standard Rocs act more-or-less like Eagles, though, which likely precludes "herding" behaviour.

However, there is a better Roc candidate for such behaviour - the Expert D&D Roc. Those are Lawful and the two smaller varieties ("Small Roc" and "Large Roc") live in groups of up to 8 or 12. They can also be tamed and trained and as riding-beasts.

That suggests that they're social animals who are likely to be pack-hunters.

 

[Gfreak2x9]

The less serious answers have been very humorous, and the more serious ones have been VERY helpful! I realize that this question has nothing to do with Roc or RPGs but I would like to ask, How do you quote someone on the forum? I am new to Forums in general and I really wish I could quote a few of you! Some of you have put out AMAZING feedback and I want to make sure I can spread your exact words to others! Any help you can offer this forum noob would be once again be greatly appreciated!