What the heck does Hidden mean!!

[essenbee]

This is how I run it at the moment: Hide in Shadows = Stealth roll; Move Silently = Stealth -5 roll (penalty for moving).

So the party are approaching graveyard in which can be seen strange lights. They decide to move stealthily up to a point where they can see what is going on, using the gravestones as cover. Everyone makes a Stealth roll (-5) vs. the passive Perception of the necromancer's skeleton guards. They make it to within 7 squares of the guards, who encircle a dark-robed figure intoning a ritual in the middle of the cemetery. The party enjoys Total Concealment, and observe for a few moments. Equipping missile weapons, the party attack with surprise. Next round, the location of the party has been discovered, and they gain only Cover from the tombstones as they fire another round of missiles, all except for the rogue. She decides to duck down and try to out-flank the guards, to get a clear shot at the necromancer. She rolls Stealth -5 to move unnoticed from gravestone to gravestone, finally hiding behind one a few squares from the caster. She has Total Concealment and Combat Advantage to attack the necromancer using a Sneak Attack...

 

[Merlin the Tuna]

I agree with OP, its not that simple, especially when it come to granting CA. What does "unaware" mean? Is that the same as being hidden or simply not targetable? That makes stealth almost equal to invisibility for many combat purposes.

See, this is one of the things that makes me grumpy at magic.

Stealth is not almost equal to invisibility. Stealth is invisibility. Invisibility is the state of not being visible. Whether you're transparent or hiding in the bushes is irrelevant. Same thing. If he can't see you, you're invisible to him.

 

[Contents May Vary]

See, this is one of the things that makes me grumpy at magic.

Stealth is not almost equal to invisibility. Stealth is invisibility. Invisibility is the state of not being visible. Whether you're transparent or hiding in the bushes is irrelevant. Same thing. If he can't see you, you're invisible to him.

But it's not the same at all in game terms. If you're invisible, you can go running across clear ground and attack someone without being seen. If you are stealthed, you cannot run across clear ground without being seen, and you are not allowed to make stealth checks either (because you have no cover).

This is why the term "hidden" should be defined in game terms - it's all very well saying "use the dictionary definition", but that is clearly not sufficient in game terms. There are too many ambiguities that arise for that kind of definition for a CORE GAME MECHANIC.

 

[essenbee]

But it's not the same at all in game terms. If you're invisible, you can go running across clear ground and attack someone without being seen. If you are stealthed, you cannot run across clear ground without being seen, and you are not allowed to make stealth checks either (because you have no cover).

This is why the term "hidden" should be defined in game terms - it's all very well saying "use the dictionary definition", but that is clearly not sufficient in game terms. There are too many ambiguities that arise for that kind of definition for a CORE GAME MECHANIC.

Same as Hide in Shadows in 1st edition.

Hidden = Total Concealment, either behind a physical object, or due to shadows or similar. What is the issue?

 

[Contents May Vary]

Same as Hide in Shadows in 1st edition.

Hidden = Total Concealment, either behind a physical object, or due to shadows or similar. What is the issue?

I was pointing out that in rule terms, invisibility is NOT the same as being hidden!

 

[essenbee]

I was pointing out that in rule terms, invisibility is NOT the same as being hidden!

Absolutely agree with you. There is some common ground, like being -5 to hit with area attacks (Total Concealment), but as you pointed out, you can stand in "plain sight" if you're invisible, but you have to be concealed behind something or skulking in shadows etc if you are hiding.

 

[Contents May Vary]

They use different terms because they've made a conscious decision to avoid having a rulebook that reads like a law book. When the rulebook doesn't define a term, fall back on your dictionary.

Hidden: concealed
Unaware: without knowledge, not cognizant

Great! Unfortunately my dictionary doesn't seem to answer the following questions! Please could you consult yours and hopefully it will be able to answer these:

* When do enemies get to use passive perception skills to spot you? And how often?
Presumably if they are "unaware" of you, they can make a passive check on their turn?
* When do enemies get to use active perception skills to spot you? And how often?
Presumably if they are "aware" of you they can make an active check on their turn?
* Can you hide without taking any other action?
* Can you hide without moving? If so, do enemies become unware of you?
* If not, and if you hide while moving, do enemies become unaware of you?
* What happens if you are hidden to one enemy who is also unaware of you, but not to another?
Can that other enemy alert the one to which you are hidden, thereby making him aware of you?
* If hiding while moving makes an enemy unaware of you, can you:
+ Slide one square (from a square with cover to another with cover) and become hidden.
+ Attack an adjacent enemy with combat advantage due to the fact the enemy is unaware of you.

 

[essenbee]

* When do enemies get to use passive perception skills to spot you? And how often? Presumably if they are "unaware" of you, they can make a passive check on their turn?

Enemies do not get the "make Passive checks" at all. Their passive Perception score is the DC for the rogue's Stealth check if the enemy is not actively looking out for him.

* When do enemies get to use active perception skills to spot you? And how often? Presumably if they are "aware" of you they can make an active check on their turn?

Enemies who know the rogue is out there somewhere and are actively searching for him would make an active Perception check per round, unless distracted by attacks from other party members.

* Can you hide without taking any other action?

Well, if you are in plain sight, you cannot hide without moving into a place where it is possible to hide, e.g. behind cover or into shadows.

* Can you hide without moving? If so, do enemies become unware of you?

I would say not, since if you are in sight, you cannot hide without moving somewhere where you can become concealed, such as ducking behind a wall or slipping into a shadow.

* If not, and if you hide while moving, do enemies become unaware of you?

If you beat their Perception roll to spot you, you gain Total Concealment (you're hidden from view. They might guess that you are in the location where they lost sight of you. You may be there or you may have moved...

* What happens if you are hidden to one enemy who is also unaware of you, but not to another?
Can that other enemy alert the one to which you are hidden, thereby making him aware of you?

Of course they can.

* If hiding while moving makes an enemy unaware of you, can you:
+ Slide one square (from a square with cover to another with cover) and become hidden.
+ Attack an adjacent enemy with combat advantage due to the fact the enemy is unaware of you.

Attacking from hiding gives Combat Advantage.

 

[Contents May Vary]

Enemies do not get the "make Passive checks" at all. Their passive Perception score is the DC for the rogue's Stealth check if the enemy is not actively looking out for him.

So do you have to make the check every turn? Also see the rules for "Targetting what you can't see" on the bottom of page 281 of the PHB. That says that a player can use their passive perception check against a hidden creature at the end of its turn. That implies that a monster should be able to do the same. (These rules really apply to invisible creatures, but common sense says that they should also apply to merely "hidden" creatures too!)

Enemies who know the rogue is out there somewhere and are actively searching for him would make an active Perception check per round, unless distracted by attacks from other party members.

The rules explicitly state that monsters in combat are NOT distracted:
"In combat, creatures are assumed to be paying attention in all directions."

Well, if you are in plain sight, you cannot hide without moving into a place where it is possible to hide, e.g. behind cover or into shadows.

I would say not, since if you are in sight, you cannot hide without moving somewhere where you can become concealed, such as ducking behind a wall or slipping into a shadow.

Sorry, I meant if you are starting from a square with concealment.

If you beat their Perception roll to spot you, you gain Total Concealment (you're hidden from view. They might guess that you are in the location where they lost sight of you. You may be there or you may have moved...

It doesn't actually say in the rules that you gain "total concealment". It just says you are "hidden". I suppose we take those to mean the same thing? If so, it would be good if they could keyword that properly!

Attacking from hiding gives Combat Advantage.

So your answer is: Yes, you can do that?

 

[essenbee]

I have limited experience with 4e but 30 years DMing, so my answers above are based on that, and upon a dash of common sense. I know that PCs and monsters to not make passive checks, as that is what "passive" means. The score is a DC that someone using an active skill has to beat in order not to be casually spotted (for Stealth) or caught in deception (Bluff), for example/

I also do not allow monsters engaged in combat with a character to make active Perception checks to see if they can spot the rogue sneaking around; their Passive score would apply then. Using an Active skill implies that the monster is concentrating on using its Perception in looking for the rogue, not merely noticing him trying to sneak whilst they are busy dealing with a PC.

So in the monster-in-combat situation, the monster's Passive Perception score would be the DC the rogue had to beat on his Stealth check in order not to be noticed by the battling monster.