What TTRPGs have the best tactical combat rules?

[Thomas Shey]

However I do feel most systems can be tactical if you choose to play them in that way, and it's whether you want the minutiae of the scene you are running or if you want a cinematic experience.

The problem is, without a certain degree of crunch, the functionality of a tactical decision is entirely dependent on GM assessment. I know some people are all over that, but I'd rather have a root canal than count on that working properly.

 

[loverdrive]

The Hero System, which has been mentioned several times, has a number of combat options that are not dependent on particular design features of a character, just baked into the combat modifiers table. Whether these area good idea or not is dependent on situation and opposition, and often the latter is not clear at least at the start of the combat so one has to make an educated guess.

Or, to put it another way, you're overgeneralizing.

I would argue that having to make guesses, educated or not severely reduces the tacticality, but that's another tangent.

What the enemies can do to prevent those options from being used? What can you do to prevent enemies from preventing you from taking those options?

 

[Thomas Shey]

I would argue that having to make guesses, educated or not severely reduces the tacticality, but that's another tangent.

I'm sure real world military planners would be fascinated to hear that.

What the enemies can do to prevent those options from being used? What can you do to prevent enemies from preventing you from taking those options?

Using other manuevers, usually. And again, to be deterministic, you have to know what the other side is going to do. You rarely do. Some of them, in the right circumstances, are reliable choices--but that's true of all tactics. That's why the term "by the book" is often used for doing certain tactics in certain circumstances. On the occasion it isn't, its almost always because the opposition has done something in advance or has access to something you don't know they do.

The fact you seem to think this somehow makes things less tactical suggests to me you're working with an odd definition of "tactical".

 

[Argyle King]

Does the definition of "tactics" change depending on whether the game is built around "combat as sport" versus "combat as war"?

D&D 4E could be tactical in terms of using powers, forced movement, and learning how to work together as a team. However, that's a very different type of tactics than a game to which a FM 7-8 could be applied.

 

[payn]

Does the definition of "tactics" change depending on whether the game is built around "combat as sport" versus "combat as war"?

D&D 4E could be tactical in terms of using powers, forced movement, and learning how to work together as a team. However, that's a very different type of tactics than a game to which a FM 7-8 could be applied.

I always viewed combat as sport as tactical, and combat as war as strategic.

 

[Argyle King]

I always viewed combat as sport as tactical, and combat as war as strategic.

I think that may be an obstacle to overcome in this discussion: defining what exactly is meant by "tactical."

For me, the default way that my mind uses "tactics" and "strategy" is to associate both with war. Most often, "tactics" tends to by what I would use to refer to small unit tactics, like those conducted by a fireteam or maybe even a platoon; strategy is more of an overarching approach to a conflict on a larger scale. But there is overlap between the two.

That doesn't always clearly map to a ttrpg.

 

[payn]

I think that may be an obstacle to overcome in this discussion: defining what exactly is meant by "tactical."

For me, the default way that my mind uses "tactics" and "strategy" is to associate both with war. Most often, "tactics" tends to by what I would use to refer to small unit tactics, like those conducted by a fireteam or maybe even a platoon; strategy is more of an overarching approach to a conflict on a larger scale. But there is overlap between the two.

That doesn't always clearly map to a ttrpg.

I think you are taking the war part a little too literally. Reynard set it up perfectly earlier. Tactics happen during the combat, strategy happens before.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Does the definition of "tactics" change depending on whether the game is built around "combat as sport" versus "combat as war"?

Hmmm. My instinct is "not really". Not in the sense that "best" is asking in the title above, which I'd have to interpret as "Most interesting and engaging" though that might mean something different to people. As referenced in passing, there's "how can I get the most use out of my character widgets" and "how can I chose to execute the setup and combat execution of a combat" which overlap and are not identical. You also have the issue that at least some "combat as war" games have an ethos where avoiding combat or making it a forgone conclusion is strongly preferred, and its at least someone less likely they'll focus on the tactical end in the first place (OD&D had very little in the way of non-subjective tactical choices, and what there was was pretty much all spell based, for example).

 

[Thomas Shey]

I always viewed combat as sport as tactical, and combat as war as strategic.

Sometimes. But depending on one's ends, you don't always get to sidestep actual tactics even in a CaW game.

 

[Argyle King]

I think you are taking the war part a little too literally. Reynard set it up perfectly earlier. Tactics happen during the combat, strategy happens before.

So as to clarify my own understanding, would tactics (for the sake of this discussion) cover both squad-level tactics and command-and-control of larger elements?