D&D 4E What was Paizo thinking? 3.75 the 4E clone?

[Shadewyn]

I disagree with the premise that the "bulk" will go 4E. A sizeable percentage has no intention of switching. Perhaps not a majority but a sizeable enough percentage they can carve out a nice share of the market.

WotC has now seen the marketing data on the 2E swap to 3.0 and the 3.0 to 3.5.

Considering that the core books PHB / MM / DMG are a good way of measuring the total number of gamers out there in the hobby I think that WotC has a very good idea on the size of the market and how fast the market will adopt a new standard of books.

Paizo on the other hand simply knows that they have a chunk of subscritions for some good module work they did. However that market is VASTLY skewed.

When WotC first put 3.X on the scene many gamers started with the WotC adventure paths. You can make Meepo jokes to just about any 3.X gamer to day and they will undersand them. After the WotC stopped building core adventure modules the Paizo team became the leading 3rd party publisher of high content mods.

The problem is that anyone who NEEDED 3rd party module support for ease and coveinice already has located Paizo for thier work. When 4E hits a portion of the Paizon membership will leave for 4E and since Paizo isnt providing 4E module support they loose those customers.

Then Paizo compounds the problem by fragmenting the market further. If you have ever played high level D&D in the 10+ levels then you know how valuable the Paizo products were to provide well stated, decent story, ease of use high level adventures that under the 3.X system would take hours to put together. If a GM who skips 4E now only has a chocie of converting to the new Pathfider system or spending hours converting pathfinder material back to 3.5 then Paizo has lost another segment of the market.

This isnt rocket science or anything that isnt seen in many other industries.

Paizo is the fast food of game modules. If their product is no longer easy to use (due to conversion issues) or cheap (barrier to entry costs now though buying their core rules) then Paizo is loosing market share.

If McDonalds charges a cover fee to enter their restuarant and then declared you must only order in French ... would you still go out of your way for that savory big mac? Some will jump through hoops of fire for it ... others will leave for other publishers errr restaurants.

And whipping figure out of your nether regions about millions of customers swooning for Paizo is silly expecially when the board threads are 50% / 50% split between I will stay with or I will leave them. I dont see folks clamoring to suddenly join them after this move.

As an FYI ... I am not saying that Paizo continuing to push 3.5 products is wrong ... their is a market for that, shrinking, but still something. I am saying that SPLITTING a shrinking market further is the bonehead move.

 

[el_skootro]

Take a look at the authors of some of the best WotC 3.5 books.
Quick Amazon Search reveals:

Erik Mona
Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk
Fiendish Codex I: Hordes of the Abyss

James Jacobs
Frostburn
Fiendish Codex I: Hordes of the Abyss

Jason Bulmahn
Dungeonscape
Secrets of Xen'drik

Mike McArtor
Complete Scoundrel
Spell Compendium

Now please, tell me again, how their stuff is low quality? I'd love to hear your opinions on every single one of these books as well.

You're assuming that the "author" has complete control over what gets put into the books. At WoTC there are editors, brand managers, etc. who help to mold the content and may have as much influence on the final product as the person whose name ends up on the cover.

El Skootro

 

[Rzach]

I am pro 4e. I have burned out on 3.x. While I don't hate 3.x, I am not it's biggest fan. But when a company tries to fix a game my curiosity gets the better of me. From a rules perspective I am curious about the fixes to 3.x game mechanics.

So yesterday I went and downloaded the Pathfinder alpha to see if anything in there was interesting.

My initial opinions are these.

1) Grapple is still to complex. These new rules are better than 3.x rules but will take to much time to use at the table. People will still have to look up the grapple rules each time.

2) Pathfinder doesn't address my core issue with 3.x games. Prestige classes. Why would you take a base class to 20th level when you can take a prestige class or two and end up with a more powerful character? Prestige classes are a number stackers dream come true. (Yes I am guilty of stacking prestige classes myself.)

As far as I can see the Pathfinder Alpha does nothing to deal with the number stacking issues 3.x has. This to me is a major problem. If all the old 3.x prestige classes are still considered cannon then the game will be broken. If the prestige classes are not cannon then they have invalidated several thousand dollars worth of material I own.

Since I am switching to 4e I don't really care about that old material myself so much. But if I was going to stay in the 3.x game it would be a major issue for me.

Really, unless Pathfinder could address the issues that prestige classes brought to the game, I see no reason to purchase it. And my group agrees with me. We all think that 3.x games are fundamentally flawed because of basic design issues with number stacking.

My solution for the last few games has been to get the players to describe their character concepts and then custom build a 20 level class for them that uses these concepts. Unfortunately that is a lot of work to do for a game and it gets worse when a character dies in the middle of an adventure. 4e looks like it will deal with the flaws of 3.x in a manageable way so we are going to switch to it in June.

Personally I think that Paizo made an error in this decision. Because of that decision they will not be receiving my groups money. I really hope this decision doesn't cause Paizo to go under, but I don't see the move as having a happy ending.

Later,
Rzach

 

[Deimodius]

The niche Paizo seems to be going for with the Pathfinder RPG is the strange part. They don't seem to be going for people who want to stick with 3.5, they seem to be going for people who aren't going to 4e but still see the need for a rules upgrade. That seems to be less people than just want to stick with 3.5 to me. So, they kinda-but-not-really-but-sorta are competing with WotC with people who want an upgrade to 3.5.

It seems that the people who _aren't_ switching to 4E fit in to one or more of the following groups: 1. Upset about a new edition so soon; 2. Don't like what they've seen of 4E so far (at all); 3. Like 3.0/3.5 just fine; 4. Believe 3.5 needs fixing, but want to be able to keep using all the books in which they've invested.

IMHO I would suggest that the % of people who like 3.0/3.5 as it is will be the minority of _Non-converts_. I imagine that most of the _non-converts_ want to keep using their existing books, but want fixes in a codified (ie printed book or PDF) manner supported in some official way.

If 4E had been a fix to 3.5 that let us keep using the crunch (or convert) from our 3.5 books, there probably would more even more people moving to 4E.

Paizo (and Monte) are going for the large niche of players who want an updated game but still use all their books. I think that's going to be a significant number of people... _if_ Paizo does a good job with the "update".

 

[Starman]

Those that are complaining that the Pathfinder Alpha does not fix enough about 3.5 seem to be forgetting one thing.

It's not the final draft.

This is the first release of their open playtesting. More will be released shortly and they are encouraging people to post their thoughts on their boards. If you feel inclined to stick with 3.5, but aren't sure about aspects of PF, then let them know. It's not a guarantee that anything will change, but it is an opportunity to be heard.

 

[psionotic]

I'm guessing this is part of the reason that Paizo are working with Necromancer on their 4e adventure path. They can hedge their bets by dipping into the 4e pool without fully committing. After comparing the sales numbers of the 4e path with the 3.789837 path, they will be able to better assess which way to go.

I find it interesting that Necro, arguably the most 'old school' of the d20 publishers, is the most excited about supporting 4e. Despite GLS slowdowns, Clark and co seem pretty psyched about their plans, and I'm really looking forward to seeing what they do with it.

 

[Dire Bare]

Part of the reason the Pathfinder Adventure Paths are so useful is that all of the work of statting up high level adversaries is already done for you. A 10th level D&D 3.5 RAW party is not going to be balanced against a group of 10th level Pathfinder RPG adversaries if those adversaries are getting a Feat every level, a big bonus to HP at 1st level and other powercreep add-ons. You'd either have to make major modifications to the NPCs (lots of work) or re-stat them from the ground up (lots of work). You'd have to do essentially the same thing with a 4e adventure or an AD&D adventure or a Conan adventure. Is it doable? Yeah. But having to do those conversions removes one of the major incentives for purchasing the Pathfinder APs in the first place and moves them into the same category as all of those other products (i.e. - convertible adventures, not compatible adventures).

Sorry man, I'm just not seeing it. The changes are just not that severe. I'm 100% positive that I'll be able to pick up a future high-level Pathfinder adventure and run it straight 3.5 D&D with making slight changes on the fly as the game progresses. I'm also 100% positive I'll be able to pick up any older 3.0 or 3.5 D&D or d20 adventure and run it straight Pathfinder RPG with only making slight changes on the fly. That's one of Paizo's stated design goals, and I trust their RPG design-fu over the random "balance" postings of fans. And they've put their money where their mouths are by releasing the Pathfinder RPG Alpha, which to my eyes clearly achieves their stated goal.

 

[hojas]

You're assuming that the "author" has complete control over what gets put into the books. At WoTC there are editors, brand managers, etc. who help to mold the content and may have as much influence on the final product as the person whose name ends up on the cover.

El Skootro

Yeah, the authors really don't have anything to do with a good or bad product. *sorry for the sarcasm but if this is the case let's not give credit to anybody


I am looking forward to playtesting these alpha rules. The best thing about them is that they will keep changing as the "fans" give more input. It will be interesting to compare the alpha and beta when all is said and done. Paizo has my vote for "best scarface" with this move. It took balls!

"All I have in this world is my balls and my word."

 

[Steely Dan]

Seriously underwhelmed, I'll stick with my own 3.75 (a blend of 3.5, Saga, and what we know from 4th Ed) for the time being.

 

[Jan van Leyden]

It seems that the people who _aren't_ switching to 4E fit in to one or more of the following groups: 1. Upset about a new edition so soon; 2. Don't like what they've seen of 4E so far (at all); 3. Like 3.0/3.5 just fine; 4. Believe 3.5 needs fixing, but want to be able to keep using all the books in which they've invested.

IMHO I would suggest that the % of people who like 3.0/3.5 as it is will be the minority of _Non-converts_. I imagine that most of the _non-converts_ want to keep using their existing books, but want fixes in a codified (ie printed book or PDF) manner supported in some official way.

If 4E had been a fix to 3.5 that let us keep using the crunch (or convert) from our 3.5 books, there probably would more even more people moving to 4E.

Paizo (and Monte) are going for the large niche of players who want an updated game but still use all their books. I think that's going to be a significant number of people... _if_ Paizo does a good job with the "update".

But from looking at the Alpha pamphlet I'd say that PF will not be that compatible with straight 3.5.

The changes to the Fighter alone, with his extra bonuses to AB and damage invalidate a lot of prestige classes. I doubt you'll be able to use an adventure for straight 3.5 and use it without changes under PF.

And if PF pulls out the Christmas tree, you'll have to re-invent even more mechanical stuff as well.

I'm not trying to tell that it will be impossible to convert s3.5 to PF, but I seriously doubt that PF will allow you to use all your books.

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Huldvoll

Jan van Leyden